Jump to content


Would WoT players care to define their view on what "Balance" means, and what metrics they u...

balance definition measure

  • Please log in to reply
12 replies to this topic

N6X507 #1 Posted 04 January 2020 - 03:31 AM

    Staff sergeant

  • Players
  • 954 battles
  • 377
  • Member since:
    06-12-2018

I have been reading the World of Tanks and Mercenary forum for several years now.

 

I have also spent a lot of time viewing videos and streams on YouTube and Twitch from those incredible players that have unrealistic (to me) win rates and stats, and who seem to be winning every single battle they participate into..

 

Often, I hear terminology such as: " buff that tank", or "nerf that tank"; this tank is OP, this other one is UP.

 

I don't have a clue how users are doing their evaluation, compare tanks and are able to define what should be done.

 

Initially, I thought I had gotten what it was;

If you get destroyed all the time and you are unable to destroy, then it means the tank you are playing should be buffed?! simple...

Yes, it is laughable, because the notion of Tier and tank class must also come to play; thus not as simplistic as I thought it was.

After reflection, I decided that, if the tank I was playing got destroyed, it was due to my lack of ability, rather than the tank's. But that too seemed difficult to prove.

 

As a mitigation measure, I purchased some of the tanks defined as "OP" by the purple players, supported by videos on YouTube.

Strangely, those tanks did not seem to be performing as I expected them to do when I played them.

 

So, were they OP or were they not?

 

I am wondering, and am hoping someone can shed light on how they can establish if a tank is OP or UP? how do you measure, and what do you use as criteria to base your judgement?

 

 

 



dzhey43 #2 Posted 04 January 2020 - 05:53 AM

    Captain

  • Beta Tester
  • 33019 battles
  • 1,500
  • [3EBC]
  • Member since:
    11-14-2013

Sexton is op. You wipe everything moving. Or maybe not, maybe they just do not play artysafe :trollface:


Spoiler

ArKenemyxX #3 Posted 04 January 2020 - 06:06 AM

    Major

  • Players
  • 24380 battles
  • 2,268
  • [PRIME]
  • Member since:
    01-24-2017
What tanks were you playing that were considered OP?

 

Pontiac Pat #4 Posted 04 January 2020 - 06:53 AM

    Major

  • WoTC Tournaments Contributor
  • 26763 battles
  • 7,489
  • [47R]
  • Member since:
    08-11-2014
I tend to define as OP something that feels like easy mode when playing it.  Conversely, I tend to define as UP tanks that make me have to work really hard and rely on luck to do well in.  I tend not to use win rate because my sample size is too small to really get that sorted.  Damage done and kill ratio give me a good feel without needing so many games because if the tank is good I'll usually do well in those categories win or lose.  One other thing I consider is whether the tank can perform with a 1-2 skill crew.  Well balanced tanks don't need super crews to do well, imo.  If, however, it's still work to play even with several key skills covered then that's strong evidence it may be UP.

If you want to be one of the 47 Ronin check out our recruitment post and then send a message to Prof935 (xbox) or dimka935 (ps4).

Estimated Marks of Excellence thresholds - https://wotclans.com.br/tanks/moe


TocFanKe4 #5 Posted 04 January 2020 - 07:09 AM

    Major

  • Players
  • 21574 battles
  • 25,056
  • [GIRLS]
  • Member since:
    03-16-2014
I look at games played per stat period, average damage in tier, win rate in tier, and win rate by high win rate players vs low win rate players. And I also use my personal experience combined with stats.  

 

Scrambles The Death Dealer


SPUK4U #6 Posted 04 January 2020 - 12:19 PM

    Major

  • Players
  • 12692 battles
  • 2,484
  • Member since:
    07-24-2018
 

What I have learned while reading this forum is that if player has a tank or spg and he likes to play it, then it's not OP and it should be buffed.  If he does not have it or if he hates to play it, but gets taken out by this tank or spg it's clearly OP and it should be nerfed immediately to the ground.  :trollface:


-- Ask, Observe, Learn and Improve --


M4ntiX #7 Posted 04 January 2020 - 12:43 PM

    Major

  • Players
  • 32924 battles
  • 5,183
  • [JOCO]
  • Member since:
    03-18-2014

OP tanks are those that have a clear advantage over other tanks in the same tier/class. For instance, Rampanzer for its health pool, Abomination for its armor, Tiger 131 for DPM, etc...

 

Broken/OP tanks are those that have a game-breaking quality that is unique to said tank/class. For instance, Deathstar's ability to one-shot any tier 8 tank, most tier 9 and some tier 10's, Waffle's clip potential (ability to kill a Maus in one clip - crazy broken), etc...

 

Those qualities however do not automatically mean you will do good in those tanks. I, for one, cannot play the Waffle, but it doesn't mean I don't understand how utterly broken it is.

 

You still need to be a good player to make full use of those broken qualities, that's also exactly the reason those tanks never get nerfed. There are too many clueless players driving those OP creations and lowering their win rates, damage per game, etc... All of this gives WG an impression those tanks aren't actually OP, when in reality they are.


Current game frustration level: ████▒▒▒▒▒▒  40% (new swe nerfiums)

"No one in history has ever been insulted into agreement." - Arthur Brooks


vVMr GoodCatVv #8 Posted 04 January 2020 - 01:27 PM

    Major

  • Beta Tester
  • 30295 battles
  • 12,971
  • Member since:
    11-08-2013

View PostM4ntiX, on 04 January 2020 - 12:43 PM, said:

OP tanks are those that have a clear advantage over other tanks in the same tier/class. For instance, Rampanzer for its health pool, Abomination for its armor, Tiger 131 for DPM, etc...

 

Broken/OP tanks are those that have a game-breaking quality that is unique to said tank/class. For instance, Deathstar's ability to one-shot any tier 8 tank, most tier 9 and some tier 10's, Waffle's clip potential (ability to kill a Maus in one clip - crazy broken), etc...

 

Those qualities however do not automatically mean you will do good in those tanks. I, for one, cannot play the Waffle, but it doesn't mean I don't understand how utterly broken it is.

 

You still need to be a good player to make full use of those broken qualities, that's also exactly the reason those tanks never get nerfed. There are too many clueless players driving those OP creations and lowering their win rates, damage per game, etc... All of this gives WG an impression those tanks aren't actually OP, when in reality they are.

 

this is your answer op.

"I'm the dandy highway man that your too scared to mention

I spend my cash on looking flash and grabbing your attention"                                                        


FuzzySquirrel21 #9 Posted 04 January 2020 - 03:36 PM

    Captain

  • Players
  • 11798 battles
  • 1,786
  • Member since:
    10-08-2016

View PostM4ntiX, on 04 January 2020 - 07:43 AM, said:

OP tanks are those that have a clear advantage over other tanks in the same tier/class. For instance, Rampanzer for its health pool, Abomination for its armor, Tiger 131 for DPM, etc...

 

Broken/OP tanks are those that have a game-breaking quality that is unique to said tank/class. For instance, Deathstar's ability to one-shot any tier 8 tank, most tier 9 and some tier 10's, Waffle's clip potential (ability to kill a Maus in one clip - crazy broken), etc...

 

Those qualities however do not automatically mean you will do good in those tanks. I, for one, cannot play the Waffle, but it doesn't mean I don't understand how utterly broken it is.

 

You still need to be a good player to make full use of those broken qualities, that's also exactly the reason those tanks never get nerfed. There are too many clueless players driving those OP creations and lowering their win rates, damage per game, etc... All of this gives WG an impression those tanks aren't actually OP, when in reality they are.

 

^bingo



Gallant Prime #10 Posted 04 January 2020 - 05:07 PM

    Major

  • WoTC Ambassador
  • 47549 battles
  • 4,376
  • [47R]
  • Member since:
    02-12-2014

I like a lot of what Pat said but will add this:  There will always be some tanks (game pieces) that are better than others and some that are worse.  Overpowered transcends skill levels and situations though.  It does not mean that every player puts up super duper stats, but it does mean they do significantly better given a set of criteria over a measurable period of time.  Significant means a noticeable and statistically relevant change from the baseline of what is expected given the criteria.    

 

So take something like arty...  Overall, arty is not OP.  It is probably OP on open maps (a limited set of criteria) because it performs significantly better for all skill levels, but on city maps it does significantly worse, thus creating some extremes (but these extremes overall can balance out). 

 

This leads to another consideration, and that is Broken.  Because of the extremes of performance and the values on game design, a game piece, feature, or dynamic may be considered Broken.  It is Broken because the results it generates are undesirable to the enjoyment of the game.  If the extreme differences in performance are still valued by the player base as a whole, it may be termed an exotic.  There is a whole different rabbit hole we could go down here, but I'll save that for another time.    

 

I like to think of all of this on the Goldilocks spectrum--particularly as done with planets and habitable zones.  Tanks, like planets, in the center of the Goldilocks spectrum are well balanced for enjoyable gameplay, like well balanced planets are enjoyable for life.  

 

Not every tank or planet has to be in the center of Goldilocks zone though, but, when moving away from center, you get more statistically significant differences in performances--closer to overpowered or closer to underpowered, closer to broken/exotic as well.  Various players have various limits to the Goldilocks zones--based on difference in values in gameplay.  So while one player may say something is overpowered--out of their Goldilocks zone, another may have it just inside of their Goldilocks zone and not quite reaching overpowered.  This is why players have differing opinions on overpowered--it is based upon degrees of tolerance of the statistical variation and resulting joy. 

 

Bias also plays a part.  Small sample size may be a bias a player has based upon having only a handful of games in the tank.  My initial reaction to the Italian tanks was quite bad, but now, I think they are more or less ok (they don't play how many would like to play though).  Another bias frequently seen on the forum is:  This game it is not doing what PC did.  Also, there is a "work ethos" bias where those activities that "show" work are valued more than activities in which the work is less physically apparent or less noticeable.  Think blue collar vs white collar work.  Various players have various biases which may come into play.   

 

As far as WG, I can only tell you the bits they have divulged, but one of the first things they look at is overall winrate.  Again they are looking at statistically significant changes from what is expected--overall game winrate.  If there are complaints, it seems they look at performance at different win rate levels--eg how do good and bad players perform and are there significant differences from what is expected?  I do have a few hypotheses regarding why WG chooses the changes they make--based off of tank assets and what is statistically different in the population.  That is to say tanks are balanced different if the difference is "good" players are the doing significantly better vs "bad" players.  I may make a table of these someday.    

 

Players in this game though frequently vent their frustrations with the type of "spreadsheet balancing," because they do not see it taking their values (and biases) into consideration.  Essentially, it is a difference of values.  The feelings of what appears to be a lack of clear explanation for the balance changes that have occurred (what was valued) contributes to player frustration.  Thus, the calls for transparency.  Calls for transparency are nothing more than let me see your values, and, if they are not my values, you will need to change your values.  

 

And this is way longer than I anticipated, but thus here we are:  a small player base, with a vocal group of unknown size that is frustrated with the values of the game designers.    



I44I Warlock #11 Posted 04 January 2020 - 05:16 PM

    Major

  • Players
  • 40118 battles
  • 3,238
  • [I66I]
  • Member since:
    02-12-2014

View PostM4ntiX, on 04 January 2020 - 01:43 PM, said:

OP tanks are those that have a clear advantage over other tanks in the same tier/class. For instance, Rampanzer for its health pool, Abomination for its armor, Tiger 131 for DPM, etc...

 

Broken/OP tanks are those that have a game-breaking quality that is unique to said tank/class. For instance, Deathstar's ability to one-shot any tier 8 tank, most tier 9 and some tier 10's, Waffle's clip potential (ability to kill a Maus in one clip - crazy broken), etc...

 

Those qualities however do not automatically mean you will do good in those tanks. I, for one, cannot play the Waffle, but it doesn't mean I don't understand how utterly broken it is.

 

You still need to be a good player to make full use of those broken qualities, that's also exactly the reason those tanks never get nerfed. There are too many clueless players driving those OP creations and lowering their win rates, damage per game, etc... All of this gives WG an impression those tanks aren't actually OP, when in reality they are.

 

Nailed it ^^

 

                             

 

               - Execute Order 66 -
                        
 
 3 marked tanks: 74
 
>Arty is op, takes no skill and is a toxic game mechanic. 
>Devs don't care about balance, i'm done with this game. 
               
                              
                        

R35T NO MORE #12 Posted 04 January 2020 - 05:19 PM

    Major

  • Beta Tester
  • 16214 battles
  • 23,436
  • [BNKR-]
  • Member since:
    08-23-2013

Op or UP doesn't necessarily come down to the individual player. The Absolution is OP yet I didn't do well with it. A tank that is OP IMO is one that can easily outclass most tanks of the same class in its tier. The V/IV is a prime example. Any other tier 5 medium will have to be played very well to beat it whereas the V/IV player can pretty much just yolo and auto aim other tier 5 meds due to the daft amount of HP.

 

Then there's tanks that are broken. The waffle falls into this category. It can yolo round a corner and obliterate any tank in the game, but it is also utterly helpless for a full minute at a time. It 2 extremes merged together,both the most powerful tank at tier 10, and also the most useless, with no middle ground (balance) at all.

 

On the topic of balanced, that means a tank that doesn't outperform most tanks in its tier automatically, but rather it has to be played to its strengths to shine, like all tanks should. If it isn't in the hands of someone doing that, then it will just do OK. Not awful, not amazing, just OK. 

 

An underpowered tank is a tank that dreads meeting tanks of its own class and tier as it will struggle against its peers. Something like the the K-91 likely fits here. Meeting pretty much any other tier 10 medium in the hands of an equally skilled player isn't going to end well for it as they will outclass it in nearly every way. 


My WoT tank reviews

If you enjoy them please do share/sub. Thanks. 


Gallant Prime #13 Posted 04 January 2020 - 05:46 PM

    Major

  • WoTC Ambassador
  • 47549 battles
  • 4,376
  • [47R]
  • Member since:
    02-12-2014

View PostM4ntiX, on 04 January 2020 - 06:43 AM, said:

OP tanks are those that have a clear advantage over other tanks in the same tier/class. For instance, Rampanzer for its health pool, Abomination for its armor, Tiger 131 for DPM, etc...

 

 

 

The only quibble I have with this is that it is not one attribute.  TOG has more health, so it is the 5/4 speed and armor that contribute significantly to it as well.  Absolution armor really isn't that bad--plenty of weakspots, but the fact that it also has a great penetrating gun with good dpm and speed to run you down.  Tiger 131 dpm is overrated but again it is speed and the pmm it gets as well.  

 







Also tagged with balance, definition, measure

1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users