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SPG impact is probably overstated a bit

Artillery Overpowered Balance SPG

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OldManSasquatch #1 Posted 11 February 2020 - 06:04 PM

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Intent

My goal is to move beyond subjective opinions and use data to objectively evaluate the degree to which artillery impacts the battle. I’m not interested in arguing with people’s subjective opinions about which classes they like to play or play against; of course you can like/dislike whatever vehicle you want.  Please don’t bother posting “artillery is cancer” or “shut up and deal with arty you whiners” as there are plenty of other places on the forums for you to do that.

 

I’m also not interested in having anecdotes shared as if they prove a conclusive point.  If you’ve played a lot of games, it’s easy to share stories that support just about any point of view that you want.  Anecdotes are welcome if they are a starting point for possible analysis, as in “my anecdotal experience is X and I can test the validity of my experience through analysis Y.” 

 

In case you are wondering, I am a noob with only about 5000 battles who plays light tanks almost exclusively with a modest Win 8 and win rate.  Most of my games are lower tier.  I have no problem with artillery, nor do I have any particular affection for it. I notice there are so many strong opinions about artillery, I wanted to investigate further.

 

Estimating Impact

If I were trying to find vehicles that have an outsized impact on the game, then probably I would look for ones with high win rates, efficiency, destroyed/battle, kills/deaths and average damage.  I would probably ignore WN8, damage dealt/received and some of the other basic stats.

One simple starting point, is to look at stats on wot.info or similar site. If I pull the top 100 of all vehicles by the following metrics I see the following count of

SPGs:

Win rate: 3

Efficiency: 1

Destroyed/battle: 1

Kills/deaths: 3

Average damage: 3

 

So for example there is only one SPG among the top 100 vehicles by destroyed/battle.  Doesn’t seem like artillery is having that impressive of an impact, but maybe that’s just too simple to look at the top 100 vehicles in a giant game with many, many vehicles.  Let’s do the same quick look within an individual tier. If I pull the top 50 tier 10 vehicles by the following metrics, I see the following count of SPGs:

 

Win rate: 0

Efficiency: 0

Destroyed/battle: 0

Kills/deaths: 0

Average damage: 0

 

I noticed that in many cases artillery tends to be clustered toward the bottom of all tier 10 vehicles in most of these stats.  Okay but maybe tier 10 is strange, so let’s look at tier 8 too. When I pull the top 100 tier 8 vehicles by the following metrics, I see the following count of SPGs:

 

Win rate: 0

Efficiency: 0

Destroyed/battle: 0

Kills/deaths: 4

Average damage: 1

 

Although 4 SPGs make the top 100 for kills/deaths, only 1 makes the top 50 in that same category.

 

This is a very simplistic way to look at things.  Much better would be an advanced statistic the measures the impact of the vehicle on the overall game. Eye-balling the numbers like this does not prove anything. That said, it sure doesn’t seem to suggest that artillery, on average, are overpowered, over impactful vehicles on a consistent basis.  I’m not saying a good arty player can’t make a difference in a given battle, because of course they can. Nor am I saying you shouldn’t be frustrated by arty; that’s your personal preference and you are entitled to your subjective opinion.  I’m saying that, given how they perform on average relative to other vehicles, I think some of the claims about artillery’s impact might be overstated a bit. 

 

Are any of you aware of more sophisticated analysis measuring the impact of arty on the outcome of games?

 

What statistical evidence is important to look at when measuring the impact of vehicles on a game?

 

Thanks

 

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Edited by OldManSasquatch, 20 February 2020 - 08:53 PM.


CattMeister #2 Posted 12 February 2020 - 10:40 AM

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I think most people would agree with you that SPG's have little to no impact. Which is why they want them gone.

The main reason why a good number of people have an intense hatred for Artillery is because Artillery has the potential to erase pretty much any tank, anywhere at any time without the ability of the target to do anything in return.

Actually it's not even limited to being erased, being damaged is enough to tick 'm off.

 

Statistic have been used many times to calm this crowd but thus far it has fallen on deaf ears.

It's not that an arty is all-deciding on who's gonna win, it doesn't have that much impact. It does however impact the single individual that got hit.

Like being sniped in an medieval game by a crossbow while you were wielding a melee weapon or being the first one lynched during a game of Salem because people disliked your name.

It has the ability to hit you while you can't do anything back.

 

Also you need to pick a server when looking through tank lists, PC SPG's do MUCH less damage and instead stun their enemies.

Looking through the K/D on XBOX for example shows 9 out of 100 are SPG's on all tiers in the last 30 days, 4 in all-time.

Efficiency is a bad stat method for Arty since it heavily weighs on defending and attacking flags.

Also I think that SPG have way more games in where they do little to 0 damage, either due to the map or being bum rushed by light or otherwise.

The potential impact that SPG's can have is probably underestimated in the statistics.

 

If you had access to more detailed stats like average damage per map you'd understand. The average damage on Malinovka by arty might be 10x more than something like Berlin by arty.



ixi Grunt #3 Posted 12 February 2020 - 10:56 PM

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View PostCattMeister, on 12 February 2020 - 05:40 AM, said:

I think most people would agree with you that SPG's have little to no impact. Which is why they want them gone.

The main reason why a good number of people have an intense hatred for Artillery is because Artillery has the potential to erase pretty much any tank, anywhere at any time without the ability of the target to do anything in return.

Actually it's not even limited to being erased, being damaged is enough to tick 'm off.

 

Statistic have been used many times to calm this crowd but thus far it has fallen on deaf ears.

It's not that an arty is all-deciding on who's gonna win, it doesn't have that much impact. It does however impact the single individual that got hit.

Like being sniped in an medieval game by a crossbow while you were wielding a melee weapon or being the first one lynched during a game of Salem because people disliked your name.

It has the ability to hit you while you can't do anything back.

 

Also you need to pick a server when looking through tank lists, PC SPG's do MUCH less damage and instead stun their enemies.

Looking through the K/D on XBOX for example shows 9 out of 100 are SPG's on all tiers in the last 30 days, 4 in all-time.

Efficiency is a bad stat method for Arty since it heavily weighs on defending and attacking flags.

Also I think that SPG have way more games in where they do little to 0 damage, either due to the map or being bum rushed by light or otherwise.

The potential impact that SPG's can have is probably underestimated in the statistics.

 

If you had access to more detailed stats like average damage per map you'd understand. The average damage on Malinovka by arty might be 10x more than something like Berlin by arty.

 

Got hit by an unspotted Deathstar in a tier X American Heavy E5 today for 2000 HPs......went around a corner and got hit in the front of my tank, the most heavy armored part and was left w 231 HPS after 1 shot. Lets get rid of HESH rounds.....when Deathstars only shot AP rounds  for 1300 damage. 

killer etzi0 #4 Posted 12 February 2020 - 11:17 PM

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Interesting take on the arty "argument".

 

 


"When you can't make them see the light, make them feel the heat."

 

Ronald Reagan
 

 


JelliedPenny08 #5 Posted 13 February 2020 - 09:22 AM

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I think you might struggle to quantify the impact in any meaningful way without access to something like the api to break down the data more effectively. 

 

A good green arty can save your bacon, but rarely has the ability to turn it around and truly carry a game. A good red arty can ruin your day. 

 

I think a lot of map knowledge and game experience goes into a really good arty player and that exacerbates the skill gap within the class. However as mentioned it is also very situational on some maps. Big damage vs bad accuracy. Have you tried looking just at premium arty to rule out lower tier inexperienced players?



OldManSasquatch #6 Posted 20 February 2020 - 08:43 PM

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you need to pick a server when looking through tank lists, PC SPG's do MUCH less damage and instead stun their enemies

 

I thought I had chosen XBOX as the server, but I was using the back button a lot and may have screwed up and not noticed that it had switched back to All servers.  For sure, as you point out, this makes a difference.  Another thing that probably makes no sense was arbitrarily picking top 50 or top 100 because each tier has a different number of tanks.  I pulled the numbers again for XBOX server at tier 6, tier 8 and tier 10, only this time I was looking for the count of SPGs in the top 1/3 of all vehicles in that tier.  They are as follows:

 

Number of SPGs in top 1/3 of Vehicles by Selected Stats and Tiers

Statistic                      Tier 6                Tier 8             Tier 10

Win rate                       1                       0                      0

Destroyed/Battle          0                       0                      0

Kills/Deaths                  4                      2                       0

Average Damage         1                      1                       1

 

So looking at these statistics, they seem to be consistent with your comment I think most people would agree with you that SPG's have little to no impact.  Or at least not an out-sized impact. I also agree with your claim that the map makes a big difference; for sure that would be the case.  And I appreciate the frustration one might feel when they get nailed by arty.

 

I'm not arguing that arty isn't annoying, I just think it seems like hyperbole when people say that artillery is ruining the game.  It might ruin a specific game, it might make it a challenge to three mark your heavy tank, it might [fill in the blank], but in general I don't think it is a big enough impact to match the level of the complaining I hear.  As a light tank player in the current matchmaking, I know all about getting 1 shot and I just consider it part of the game. I never blame the game for it, I just think about what I could do differently next time. 

 

A good green arty can save your bacon, but rarely has the ability to turn it around and truly carry a game. A good red arty can ruin your day. I think a lot of map knowledge and game experience goes into a really good arty player and that exacerbates the skill gap within the class.

 

Agree with this 100%.  What I make up is that there are three basic camps of artillery haters: 

  1. People with zero map awareness that blame arty, when really they should be blaming themselves for doing stupid stuff. These are probably the same people that message me "cheater" when they lose or claim every tank they play is OP. 
  2. Highly skilled people that don't like things they can't control (including, but not limited to arty) getting in the way of their win rate/win 8.  Of course lots of stuff is out of one's control in this game, but maybe arty is sort of the symbol of the angry, unfair wot gods. 
  3. People who are are joiners and haters and do the I hate arty thing to be part of the crowd.  

 

Obviously I could be completely wrong about this, as I'm just making stuff up here. I can certainly sympathize with folks in group 2 above.  I know that most of the time I get hit it's my own fault for not being aware...  maybe if I were a better player trying to 3 mark vehicles etc. I would experience arty as more annoying.  A good game usually has to have some randomness/unexpectedness in it, or it gets boring. On the other hand too much randomness (too little control) stops being fun too.  I can appreciate that arty, along with RNG, dumb team mates, matchmaking, idiots that yolo, etc. can all be legitimately frustrating.

 

Interesting take on the arty "argument".

Thanks!

 

PS: Earlier I said I didn't want to get into subjective claims, but obviously my theory about the three types of arty haters is completely subjective and not supported by any data.  Guess I changed my mind.  :)

 

PPS: I did not do "last 30 days", thinking more data would give a better answer but that choice is debatable. 


Edited by OldManSasquatch, 20 February 2020 - 08:51 PM.





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