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Let’s Talk About Tanks — AMX 30 B Edition

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RaiBOT01-x #1 Posted 20 April 2020 - 02:11 PM

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Hey everyone!

 

My name is Jeff Gregg, and I am the Lead Designer on World of Tanks Mercenaries and welcome to "Lets talk about tanks! AMX 30 B edition".

 

The goal is to highlight specific tanks, one at a time, and really dig down into what makes them tick, how they are being used, and how approaches may be taken to improve them if necessary.

 

As you read you will see a lot of charts and data. All of this data compares the tank to every other tank of its tier over a sixty-day period. All data is pulled from Random Battles only.

 

This article focused on the AMX 30 B so let us begin!

NOTE: All data is taken from Random Battles over a fixed 60 day period. Both the Xbox Live and PSN environments were used.

 

BATTLES AND POPULARITY

The AMX 30 B:

A Tier X French Medium, the AMX 30 B uses a 105 mm mle. F1 weapon to defend itself.  The tank is used by the players ~ 1,700 battles a day

 

So how is this tank doing with these players? According to the data, it wins an average of ~ 49.9% of the battles it fights in:

 

Let us take a deeper look into win-rate. An average of win/loss doesn't tell us as much as some may think. As always, we should do is evaluate WHO is using this tank when it comes to skill.

 

Below we see an orange-ish/yellow-ish curve (representing the skill of ALL players) and a blue curve (representing the skill of the players using this tank). The higher the curve, the more players at that skill level are using the tank. We can see that most players are right in the middle / are usually successful at ~ 50% win/loss. The lower the skill and the higher the skill, the fewer the players.

 

Now we might ask: "there are players with 100% win rate?!" or "there are players with 0% win rate?!" Those are likely players that played once in this tank and won or lost and then stopped. Super low occurrence outliers.

 

The AMX 30 B seems to be right in line with the average popularity of all tier X tanks. There is a TINY increase at about the 41% to 45% range, but not much:

 

Let's look at the tank's win/loss compared to skill. In the below picture we see two lines, one that represents the entire population's win/loss and another that represents this tank's win/loss.

 

The AMX 30 B performs exactly as it should when looked at via skill level. Lines are almost completely overlapped, meaning this tank neither hurts you nor helps you more than expected based on your win rate:

 

WEAPONS

Let us keep looking and focus on the weapon (the 105 mm mle. F1).  Accuracy is good for a Medium. The weapon connects with a target ~ 72% of the time:

 

Penetration is not so great for a medium. This tank penetrates 48.2% of the shots that hit foes.

 

Damage per shot that hit is not so amazing. Average of ~ 230 damage per hit:

 

Damage per shot that hits AND penetrates is better. If you pen you do ~ 360 damage (very close to the AMX 50 B):

 

Damage per battle is lower than I expected when I looked. It does (on average) the least amount of damage per battle out of all tier X Mediums with ~ 1,600 per battle:


Edited by RaiBOT01, 20 April 2020 - 04:49 PM.

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RaiBOT01-x #2 Posted 20 April 2020 - 03:55 PM

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SURVIVAL, ETC.

Let's keep looking at other stats.

 

How often does this tank survive a match? On average the tank about 24.6% of the time which is about 2% lower than I'd usually like to see from a Medium at tier X:

 

How long does the tank live for in a match? On average, about 4min and 32seconds which is not terrible for a medium at this tier:

 

How far does this tank move? It seems in line with other medium tanks at this tier:

 

How much damage does it usually block? The tank won't win any awards here, but for medium tanks the tank isn't bad:

 

CONCLUSIONS

So what's the summary?  We have analyzed numerical data on this tank.

 

The things that stand out the most are:

  1. This tank seems fairly healthy on the whole except:
  2. This tank isn't penning as much as it should which is resulting in a very low damage output

 

Based on this we plan on doing the following in 1 week:

  • Buff the penetration and shell speed on this gun to be more than now but not as much as it was before we nerfed it before. This will also impact the Tier 9 AMX 30
  • 105mm mle F1 gun
    • 105mm OFL 105 F1 shell
      • Speed: 1100 → 1525
    • 105mm OCC 105 F1 shell
      • Speed:  800 → 1000
    • Penetration: 248/300/53 → 255/310/53

 

The above changes will take place on April 21st

 

In order to measure the impact of these changes once they are committed, we need at least 5,000 battles in the tank(s) to have enough data. Once we have that amount of info, we will report back here on what the results were and (if necessary) what the next steps will be.

 

If you have feedback about this process or have further questions, please share your feedback in this post!  Stay tuned here for results of the test and for what the next tank we focus on is.

 

See you on the battlefield!

 

-CHUJI


Edited by RaiBOT01, 20 April 2020 - 05:02 PM.

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DwarfOnDrugs-x #3 Posted 20 April 2020 - 06:48 PM

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errrrrrrmmmmmm.

That is a lot of stats yet you are not taking in to account player experience with this vehicle. One main way to look at this is to look at games played in this vehicle and the amount of players that have chosen to unlock said vehicle.

Thanks for finally realising the vehicle needs a buff but quite simply it never needed a nerf in the first place. Players wanted it buffed and it was nerfed. Stop looking at what is irrelevant data in this case and actually ask your reliable community members what is needed.

The vehicle is not played by players for a reason.


 


natedaishmaster-x #4 Posted 20 April 2020 - 06:57 PM

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Honestly, not as much of a buff as I'd like considering it still has worse accuracy, pen, and DPM than the Leopard 1 with very few upsides other than a small amount of turret armor but it's a step in the right direction at least. I appreciate the fact that you're going to take another look in a bit to see the effect of the change

Edited by natedaishmaster, 20 April 2020 - 06:57 PM.

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I R Matte #5 Posted 20 April 2020 - 06:57 PM

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I agree with this ^

Although I am very happy that tanks that NEED to be looked at seem to be so, there's is still some error here in going purely off of data and not experience with what you're looking at. The 30B was never in need of a nerf in the first place and even though the buffs it's getting here is a good start. If it needs other changes than making it a worse Leopard 1 still.

The original nerf was copied from pc but missed the point in adding DPM to counter the negatives. It wasn't a nerf, more of a rebalancing/repurposing which is more of what the tank needs.



AwardedSteak863 #6 Posted 20 April 2020 - 07:04 PM

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This is a good start.  I just started playing the game regularly again last week and am hopeful we see some much needed buffs and nerfs.  I think it is a good idea to be transparent with how tanks are performing or not performing.  I am hopeful to see some real change with the Valor update.

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Ragyoo-p #7 Posted 20 April 2020 - 07:05 PM

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Hello,

 

Thanks for buffing the gun, will make bon usage


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LacqueredBacon-x #8 Posted 20 April 2020 - 07:07 PM

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Thank you for posting this.  There is a lot of information and it is great that you are explaining your rationale.  I especially like your graph of win rate in the vehicle vs. player individual win rate.

However, I personally think that win rate isn't really the best indicator of the performance of a vehicle.  It might be an indirect way of measuring players performance in a vehicle but it doesn't really measure the vehicle specifically.

You concluded that the pen needs a buff.  Have you looked at pen rate in the vehicle vs pen rate individually?

When I play it (and I don' play it often because there are tanks that are better that do the same thing), my biggest aggravation with the tank is the giant tumor of a weakspot on the top of the turret.  Have you considered buffing that weakspot?

 


 



 


BrogueOne-p #9 Posted 20 April 2020 - 07:12 PM

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I realize this takes a lot of time and effort to write these articles, but I look forward to seeing these more often.  Like Fusion said, it’s just good practice to let players know exactly why a given tank was changed so they’re not just blindly angry when it’s a nerf or pleasantly surprised from a buff they didn’t expect.  

That being said.... I look forward to playing my recently unlocked/bought AMX 30b as soon as I finish my current contract.

Maximos92-x #10 Posted 20 April 2020 - 07:17 PM

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I think you forgot the part where it has bad DPM and bad Dispersion these days. What good is a little extra pen going to do?

Koneko Da Best-x #11 Posted 20 April 2020 - 07:17 PM

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The amx 30B needs a dpm buff not just some slight pen buff otherwise there is no reason to play it over any of the other tier 10 mediums when some of them have better armor and dpm.

Chuji #12 Posted 20 April 2020 - 07:31 PM

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View PostDwarfOnDrugs, on 20 April 2020 - 12:48 PM, said:

errrrrrrmmmmmm.

That is a lot of stats yet you are not taking in to account player experience with this vehicle. One main way to look at this is to look at games played in this vehicle and the amount of players that have chosen to unlock said vehicle.

Thanks for finally realising the vehicle needs a buff but quite simply it never needed a nerf in the first place. Players wanted it buffed and it was nerfed. Stop looking at what is irrelevant data in this case and actually ask your reliable community members what is needed.

The vehicle is not played by players for a reason.

 

Actually we totally do take into account skill with vehicle. Please see Popularity and win rate graphs. We pay attention to not just the average, but the performance of the vehicle cross-compared with the skill of the users cross-compared with the popularity sliced by skill.

 

Let me know if you can't find that data or its confusing.



MrWiggles24 #13 Posted 20 April 2020 - 07:33 PM

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View PostKoneko Da Best, on 20 April 2020 - 12:17 PM, said:

The amx 30B needs a dpm buff not just some slight pen buff otherwise there is no reason to play it over any of the other tier 10 mediums when some of them have better armor and dpm.

Jeff illustrated in his post that while the average damage was on the low side 1600 per game it was more closely related to the lack of penetration (42%) rate rather than it's ability to hit it's target. This should then lead to an increase in average damage per game. If it doesn't they will look to into additional changes.



MASHMAN 90-x #14 Posted 20 April 2020 - 07:44 PM

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View PostChuji, on 20 April 2020 - 07:31 PM, said:

 

Actually we totally do take into account skill with vehicle. Please see Popularity and win rate graphs. We pay attention to not just the average, but the performance of the vehicle cross-compared with the skill of the users cross-compared with the popularity sliced by skill.

 

Let me know if you can't find that data or its confusing.

 

While you're here Jeff, people are confused on if "this is it" or if we will get future balances down the line, What's your strategy and how will it work? Will be it 2 changes per week or one big patch?

 

Hope you and Waffles are good :)



Koneko Da Best-x #15 Posted 20 April 2020 - 07:59 PM

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View PostMrWiggles24, on 20 April 2020 - 01:33 PM, said:

Jeff illustrated in his post that while the average damage was on the low side 1600 per game it was more closely related to the lack of penetration (42%) rate rather than it's ability to hit it's target. This should then lead to an increase in average damage per game. If it doesn't they will look to into additional changes.

 

skewed data because out of the 5 people who play the tank still LOL I'd bet 3 of them are at least unicum or better it needs more than just a pen buff and PC realized that just fine so not sure what the deal is over here :popcorn:

Chuji #16 Posted 20 April 2020 - 08:18 PM

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View PostMASHMAN 90, on 20 April 2020 - 01:44 PM, said:

 

While you're here Jeff, people are confused on if "this is it" or if we will get future balances down the line, What's your strategy and how will it work? Will be it 2 changes per week or one big patch?

 

Hope you and Waffles are good :)

 

Oh this is a start, not the end.

Behind the scenes we are looking at lots of other vehicles as well.



natedaishmaster-x #17 Posted 20 April 2020 - 08:21 PM

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View PostChuji, on 20 April 2020 - 12:18 PM, said:

 

Oh this is a start, not the end.

Behind the scenes we are looking at lots of other vehicles as well.

 

I think he was more asking if we're going to be getting 2ish balance changes per week or if we're going to get more for the patch tomorrow?

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Pontiac Pat-x #18 Posted 20 April 2020 - 08:25 PM

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Thank you.  These changes are welcome.  I think the suggestion of buffing the cupola armor is a good one.  I also think an issue with this tank is that its mobility is worse than the tier 9 it follows in some ways.  The tier 9 has better power/weight, better ground resistance, better turret traverse.  Those things make the tier 10 feel somewhat unresponsive in comparison.  A buff to ground resistance and turret traverse to be at least equal to the tier 9 would be welcome.

 

Also, will you be addressing some of the blatantly OP premium tanks at lower tiers?  Those are some of the big killers of the new player experience.


Edited by Pontiac Pat, 20 April 2020 - 08:29 PM.

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MASHMAN 90-x #19 Posted 20 April 2020 - 08:33 PM

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View PostChuji, on 20 April 2020 - 08:18 PM, said:

 

Oh this is a start, not the end.

Behind the scenes we are looking at lots of other vehicles as well.

 

Nice, a few of requests from me.

 

Italians: Tier 9 and 10 (i think 8 is fine but reloads are too long with the 105), even shaving a second on each clip is a good start.

K-91: Buff Concealment (or Nerf it in the 430U), K-91 is meant to be a Sniper but has worse camo than the 430U "Heavy", Also a Rate of Fire Buff (i'd rather play the STG at Tier 8 than the K-91 at Tier 10)

907 - Buff ROF Slightly, reload too long

183s - Nerf the HESH from 275 to 210 (200 would be ideal)

TVP T50 - Buff the Reload to what it was before the 2nd nerf, It should NOT have a worse reload than The Machine. Ideally it should be better to compensate for lack of armour

TVP VTU - Give it an Autoloader, won't be OP but formidable in a top tier matchup with increased pen, However the Skoda T50 should be better

 

All for now what's in my head lol.



FusionStar287-x #20 Posted 20 April 2020 - 08:37 PM

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View PostMASHMAN 90, on 20 April 2020 - 03:33 PM, said:

 

Nice, a few of requests from me.

 

Italians: Tier 9 and 10 (i think 8 is fine but reloads are too long with the 105), even shaving a second on each clip is a good start.

K-91: Buff Concealment (or Nerf it in the 430U), K-91 is meant to be a Sniper but has worse camo than the 430U "Heavy", Also a Rate of Fire Buff (i'd rather play the STG at Tier 8 than the K-91 at Tier 10)

907 - Buff ROF Slightly, reload too long

183s - Nerf the HESH from 275 to 210 (200 would be ideal)

TVP T50 - Buff the Reload to what it was before the 2nd nerf, It should NOT have a worse reload than The Machine. Ideally it should be better to compensate for lack of armour

TVP VTU - Give it an Autoloader, won't be OP but formidable in a top tier matchup with increased pen, However the Skoda T50 should be better

 

All for now what's in my head lol.

I second these requests. I'll also add that the last set of nerfs to the Maus and the Type 5 Heavy be looked at and hopefully reversed.


"My dear brothers, take note of this: Men should be quick to listen, slow to speak, and slow to become angry, for man's anger does not bring about the righteous life that God desires." ~ James 1: 19-20

 

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