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Let’s Talk About Tanks — AMX 50 Foch (155)

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RaiBOT01-x #1 Posted 29 April 2020 - 04:39 PM

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Hey everyone!

My name is Jeff Gregg, and I am the Lead Designer on World of Tanks: Valor.  Welcome to "Let's talk about tanks! AMX 50 Foch (155) edition".

The goal is to highlight specific tanks, one at a time, and really dig down into what makes them tick, how they are being used, and how approaches may be taken to improve them if necessary.

As you read you will see a lot of charts and data. All of this data compares the tank to every other tank of its tier over a sixty-day period. All data is pulled from Random Battles only.

This article focused on the AMX 50 Foch (155). Let's get started!

All data is taken from Random Battle over a fixed 60 day period. Both the Xbox Live and PSN environments were used.

Battles and Popularity

The AMX 50 Foch (155)

A Tier X French Tank Destroyer, the AMX 50 Foch (155) enters battle with one of two guns. The stock 155 mm AC SA58 or the upgrade package's 120 mm AC SA46.

This TD resides in the lower 1/3 of the Tier X TDs in terms of daily battles played. It's not very popular it seems:

 

When we look at the packages and their battles per day we can see the distribution is pretty even. People seem to prefer the stock package, but only just:

 

So how is this tank doing with these players? Is it dominating? Is it suffering? According to the data, it is performing at a very solid 50.6% win/loss rate:

Let's look into the win-rate based on the package. While the upgrade package does seem to give you a 1% increase in win/loss probability on average, that seems to depend on the day:

 

Let's take a deeper look at the win rate. An average of win/loss doesn't tell us as much as some may think. As always, we should do is evaluate WHO is using this tank when it comes to skill.

Below we see an orange-ish / yellow-ish curve (representing the skill of ALL players) and a blue curve (representing the skill of the players using this tank). The higher the curve, the more players at that skill level are using the tank. We can see that most players are right in the middle / are usually successful at ~ 50% win/loss. The lower the skill and the higher the skill, the fewer the players.

Now we might ask: "there are players with a 100% win rate?!" or "there are players with 0% win rate?!" Those are likely players that played once in this tank and won or lost and then stopped. Super low occurrence outliers.

This tank seems to be a bit less attractive to lower-skilled players and just as attractive as any other tier X tank to higher skilled players (with a SLIGHT increase in popularity at very high skill levels ~ 60% to 70%):

 

Let's look at the tank's win/loss compared to skill. In the below picture we SHOULD see two lines, one that represents the entire population's win/loss and another that represents this tank's win/loss. We can't see two lines, because they are almost perfectly aligned. Meaning if a tanker (in general) wins 55% of the time, he or she will win 55% of the time in this tank. The tank itself is neither hurting the tanker's performance nor is it giving he or she an edge beyond their skill:

 

Weapons

Let's keep looking and compare the weaponry:

Accuracy is very good when the tank is looked at as a whole. On average it competes as one of the (if not THE) most accurate tier X TDs in the game:

Accuracy per gun: we can see the upgraded gun is ~ 1.5% more accurate on average:

 

The number of shots that pen their target is right in the dead center average for Tier X TDs:

 

Penetration % is interesting per gun. The stock gun has a fairly significant increase in penetration chance (~ 4% on average). Statistically, you trade pen for accuracy:

 

Damage per shot that hits is in the bottom third of the Tier X TDs (super high numbers in the graph below are the tier X SPGs):

 


Edited by RaiBOT01, 29 April 2020 - 07:16 PM.

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RaiBOT01-x #2 Posted 29 April 2020 - 04:51 PM

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Per penetrating shot per gun. Again the upgraded weapon is doing less damage per hit that pens. A lot less:

 

But that's just per shot and doesn't account for the volume of fire the tank can put downrange.

When looking at damage per battle (cumulative damage for all attacks in a battle) this tank does really well:

 

Damage per battle per package is an equalizer. While the upgraded package does more damage per battle on average (which is interesting considering its lower damage per hit) the packages are close to tied re: damage output:

 

Based on the above it looks like we can start to consider the following:

  1. Statistically, the tank is fairly balanced for both packages re: win/loss
  2. Statistically, the damage output of the tank doesn't change dramatically per BATTLE depending on the package (but if you look at just a single shot the upgrade package will fool you into thinking it's inferior)

Survival, etc.

Let's keep looking.

How often does this tank survive a match? Statistically, it has the lowest chance of surviving a match of any Tier X TD (~29% survival).

 

If you are using the upgraded package your chances of survival drop by about 1.3 on average

 

How long does the tank live for in a match? About 4min and 48seconds on average:

 

Lifetime by the package is interesting. There is so much variance that its hard to draw any conclusions. On average the stock package lives ~ 5% longer, but the data is so "jaggy" it is inconclusive. See below:

 

How far does this tank move? Not much, but in the middle of the pack for TDs (which makes sense for a TD at the higher tiers). The only SPGs move less:

 

The package used doesn't cause much of a distance re: travel

 

How much damage does it usually block? Not bad actually, it's dead in the middle of average damage blocked for tier X TDs:

 

Blocked damage per package (on average the upgrade package blocks ~ 5% more damage):

So what's the summary?

We have analyzed numerical data on this tank.

We have dived into key differences between the two packages (focusing primarily on the firepower changes).

We see this tank doesn't survive as long as other tier X TDs

Action Items

Based on this we plan on doing the following:

  • Increase the Hull Armor in key panels by ~15%
    • Armor Panel 3: 40mm → 46mm
    • Armor Panel 11: 40mm → 46mm
    • Armor Panel 20: 50mm → 58mm

The above changes will take place tomorrow after the server restart.

In order to measure the impact of these changes once they are committed, we need at least 5,000 battles in the tank(s) to have enough data. Once we have that amount of info, we will report back here on what the results were and (if necessary) what the next steps will be.

If you have feedback about this process or have further questions, reach out! Stay tuned here for results of the test and for what the next tank we focus on is.

See you on the battlefield!

-CHUJI


Edited by RaiBOT01, 29 April 2020 - 07:31 PM.

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RaiBOT01-x #3 Posted 04 May 2020 - 10:58 AM

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Article now available!

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Vampire_Izumi-p #4 Posted 04 May 2020 - 11:05 AM

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so based on this the x3 rule will be moved from ___ to ___ on these 3 spots for autopen/autobounce:

Armor Panel 3: 40mm → 46mm

  • 120mm → 138mm

Armor Panel 11: 40mm → 46mm

  • 120mm → 138mm

Armor Panel 20: 50mm → 58mm

  •  150mm → 174mm

 


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Koneko Da Best-x #5 Posted 04 May 2020 - 11:17 AM

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Still not enough PC gave much larger armor buffs to the side so you don't get overmatched by everything and the tank still isn't that great on PC so how much do you expect to improve it with such minor changes in a tougher environment than what the PC Foch 155/50 B has to face. It's such a small buff I honestly don't see how anyone who is supposed to handle game balance would think it's gonna help the tank any...

Warthog II-x #6 Posted 04 May 2020 - 11:21 AM

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View PostVampire_Izumi, on 04 May 2020 - 11:05 AM, said:

so based on this the x3 rule will be moved from ___ to ___ on these 3 spots for autopen/autobounce:

Armor Panel 3: 40mm → 46mm

  • 120mm → 138mm

Armor Panel 11: 40mm → 46mm

  • 120mm → 138mm

Armor Panel 20: 50mm → 58mm

  •  150mm → 174mm

 

 

it's not quite "autopen" because the AP/APCR shells need to still punch through the effective armor value 


  

Some people claim Ensk should be tier restricted.   I don't believe their lies. 

Imagine if this forum had only players who actually win more than lose trying to tell others how to play. Would be the best forum ever. Instead, we have a bunch of bad advice from players who lose more often than not trying to tell their betters how to play their tanks.

 


MaxChaos24-x #7 Posted 04 May 2020 - 11:26 AM

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View PostKoneko Da Best, on 04 May 2020 - 07:17 AM, said:

Still not enough PC gave much larger armor buffs to the side so you don't get overmatched by everything and the tank still isn't that great on PC so how much do you expect to improve it with such minor changes in a tougher environment than what the PC Foch 155/50 B has to face. It's such a small buff I honestly don't see how anyone who is supposed to handle game balance would think it's gonna help the tank any...

 

Hello, you can see it's performance on Console in the above article. What it does on PC isn't relevant. Based on its performance on Console, you can see that it's doing quite well already. It's winning, it's accurate, it's penning its shots, it's one of the highest damage dealing TD's, so there really isn't anything it's doing badly. Its survival isn't that great but not stopping it from performing well. This change helps it just a little without making it OP.  What do you see above that says it's in need of a massive buff?

Vampire_Izumi-p #8 Posted 04 May 2020 - 11:28 AM

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View PostMaxChaos24, on 04 May 2020 - 08:26 PM, said:

 

Hello, you can see it's performance on Console in the above article. What it does on PC isn't relevant. Based on its performance on Console, you can see that it's doing quite well already. It's winning, it's accurate, it's penning its shots, it's one of the highest damage dealing TD's, so there really isn't anything it's doing badly. What do you see above that says it's in need of a massive buff?

 

with these buffs, it can bounce 130mms now, which means most tanks at tier 10 should have issues with those buffed areas, hopefully they are in spots that were getting easily penned before!

 

Edit: it looks like the Side armor and the area where the tracks are on the side armor. (upper part of side armor, the tracks on the hull, not the tracks moving it)


Edited by Vampire_Izumi, 04 May 2020 - 11:33 AM.

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Vampire_Izumi-p #9 Posted 04 May 2020 - 11:29 AM

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View PostWarthog II, on 04 May 2020 - 08:21 PM, said:

 

it's not quite "autopen" because the AP/APCR shells need to still punch through the effective armor value 

 

anything above that number can pen it no matter the angle, its why the swedish TDS have issues with their armor against certain tanks.

Edited by Vampire_Izumi, 04 May 2020 - 11:30 AM.

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Marks of Excellence: Tier V > Tier X in that order. 5678910


LacqueredBacon-x #10 Posted 04 May 2020 - 11:45 AM

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Max,

 

Can you give a graphic of which panels are buffed?  And are these sloped areas?



 


Koneko Da Best-x #11 Posted 04 May 2020 - 11:47 AM

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View PostMaxChaos24, on 04 May 2020 - 05:26 AM, said:

 

Hello, you can see it's performance on Console in the above article. What it does on PC isn't relevant. Based on its performance on Console, you can see that it's doing quite well already. It's winning, it's accurate, it's penning its shots, it's one of the highest damage dealing TD's, so there really isn't anything it's doing badly. Its survival isn't that great but not stopping it from performing well. This change helps it just a little without making it OP.  What do you see above that says it's in need of a massive buff?

 

This is coming from the same data that says any of the 183mm guns are balanced and that the T110E4 is balanced. Yet if you ask any player at a higher skill level they'll all tell you those tanks are OP and those same players myself included will tell you the Foch 155 is a terrible tank. But hey lets look at win rate while balancing a tank that has only has 9k battles played over the last 30 days on xbox and playstation whilst the T110E4 has 97k the FV215b183 has 108k the FV4005 has 99k... Now lets stop and think about that for a minute don't you think that if the Foch 155 was performing so well like your all knowing graphs above say it'd have a comparable amount of battles played to the above mentioned fellow TD's. Or better yet maybe you could explain to me why those three TD's listed above have such high recent battles because I know why but I'm not convinced anyone in the balance department does... :rolleyes:

Edited by Koneko Da Best, 04 May 2020 - 11:48 AM.


FBPrime-x #12 Posted 04 May 2020 - 11:58 AM

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View PostMaxChaos24, on 04 May 2020 - 06:26 AM, said:

 

Hello, you can see it's performance on Console in the above article. What it does on PC isn't relevant. Based on its performance on Console, you can see that it's doing quite well already. It's winning, it's accurate, it's penning its shots, it's one of the highest damage dealing TD's, so there really isn't anything it's doing badly. Its survival isn't that great but not stopping it from performing well. This change helps it just a little without making it OP.  What do you see above that says it's in need of a massive buff?

 

Side armor to 80mm like the tier 9 has.  Currently the tier 10 is super easy to farm and pen unlike its tier 9 predecessor; the minor changes being made to it will not change much.

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Haukkis-x #13 Posted 04 May 2020 - 12:17 PM

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View PostMaxChaos24, on 04 May 2020 - 12:26 PM, said:

 

Hello, you can see it's performance on Console in the above article. What it does on PC isn't relevant. Based on its performance on Console, you can see that it's doing quite well already. It's winning, it's accurate, it's penning its shots, it's one of the highest damage dealing TD's, so there really isn't anything it's doing badly. Its survival isn't that great but not stopping it from performing well. This change helps it just a little without making it OP.  What do you see above that says it's in need of a massive buff?

 

Max, the biggest issue still remains: It still has terrible 6 degrees gun arc! It needs gun arc/pitch limits buffed 6>10 degrees to be more enjoyble to play (and attractive to players).  It's predecessors had 10 degrees, this vehicle needs same. Now it feels really ankward and frustrating to play Foch 155 after playing hundreds of battles with a td's that have 10 degrees (tiers 8-9). I know data doesn't show it but 6 degrees really hurts this vehicle (how many shot you can take with only 6 degrees of gun arc) and I believe there are people who just don't bother playing through this line because they know tier X Foch won't be worth playing (or maeby they are waiting gun arc buff to arrive...).  Small armor buffs won't make this vehicle much better or fun to play, but buffing that gun arc would give it more flexibility and make it more enjoyble and fun to play! Please make it happen... :)

Edited by Haukkis, 04 May 2020 - 12:20 PM.


DwarfOnDrugs-x #14 Posted 04 May 2020 - 12:31 PM

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It still needs more side armour.

It currently can’t angle at all. If it was able to angle it would be a goo tank to play. In it’s current state any tier X can just press A and go through it frontally.


 


DwarfOnDrugs-x #15 Posted 04 May 2020 - 12:37 PM

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Also another thing that doesn’t seem to be taken in to account in the overall tier X W/R.

The average W/R of tier X vehicles is higher than 50%. Not 50%.

So when you state ‘It has a solid 50.6% W/R’ i am fairly sure that is below average.


 


MaxChaos24-x #16 Posted 04 May 2020 - 12:40 PM

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View PostDwarfOnDrugs, on 04 May 2020 - 08:37 AM, said:

Also another thing that doesn’t seem to be taken in to account in the overall tier X W/R.

The average W/R of tier X vehicles is higher than 50%. Not 50%.

So when you state ‘It has a solid 50.6% W/R’ i am fairly sure that is below average.

 

This one is in the article above, if you look at the image labeled: AMX 50 Foch (155) - Tank Win Rate, it shows how it's Win Rate by Skill level lines up with the average win rate of Tier X's at that same skill level. :honoring:

DwarfOnDrugs-x #17 Posted 04 May 2020 - 12:48 PM

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View PostMaxChaos24, on 04 May 2020 - 12:40 PM, said:

 

This one is in the article above, if you look at the image labeled: AMX 50 Foch (155) - Tank Win Rate, it shows how it's Win Rate by Skill level lines up with the average win rate of Tier X's at that same skill level. :honoring:

 

But on average players they should have a higher W/R in tier X vehicles than in comparison to the rest of their tanks.

We have console MM not PC, we don’t have an equal number of Xs on both teams all the time. (This is not a complaint i actually prefer console MM).

What i am saying is that in theory any tankers W/R should be higher in a Tier X vehicle due to MM.

Tier X tanks as a whole don’t have 50% W/R average.


 


Ragyoo-p #18 Posted 04 May 2020 - 12:51 PM

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Hello,

 

I love the recent french bias turn taken.

 

AMX got buffed.

 

ALLEZ LA FRANCE ! EN AVANT !!!


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I44I Warlock-x #19 Posted 04 May 2020 - 01:34 PM

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Block Quote

 

Survival, etc.

Let's keep looking.

How often does this tank survive a match? Statistically, it has the lowest chance of surviving a match of any Tier X TD (~29% survival).

 

A higher reverse speed would help this. 

It can get into position pretty fast but it has problems geeting out of a bad situation or retreating. 

Not beeing able to retreat without having to turn your entire tank was the mayor problem i had when playing that Line (T8-10) and i think this would've been more useful for the survival than changing some armor values. 

 


 

                             

 

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psmobius1-p #20 Posted 04 May 2020 - 03:25 PM

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Thanks for the in-depth reviews and all the graphs and charts. It is fun to see what the devs see behind the scenes. And to those still complaining about TD's like the 183, it most likely is performing right around average because for every good player with it you have one that totally sucks with it and dies in the first 2 minutes of the battle. They will often have a higher battle count due to the hype they constantly get. Also, many average players go up against them as they are doing their grinds and lose so they focus on getting these heavy hitters and playing them but then figure out they don't understand how to play them and die just as quickly as before.

 

All in all, in the hands of a good player....these are absolute monsters wreaking havoc in the battle but in the hands of the less than average to average player, these are merely red enemies on the map soon to be erased with very little accomplished.  







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