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Let's talk about tanks - TVP T 50/51 & The Machine


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RaiBOT01-x #1 Posted 29 April 2020 - 05:01 PM

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Hey everyone!

My name is Jeff Gregg, and I am the Lead Designer on World of Tanks Valor.

Welcome to "Let's talk about tanks! TVP T 50/51 & the Machine edition".

The goal is to highlight specific tanks and really dig down into what makes them tick, how they are being used, and how approaches may be taken to improve them if necessary. 

As you read you will see a lot of charts and data. All of this data compares the tank to every other tank of its tier over a sixty-day period. All data is pulled from Random Battles only.

This article focuses on the TVP T 50/51 and The Machine. Let's get started!

All data is taken from Random Battle over a fixed 60 day period. Both the Xbox Live and PSN environments were used.

Battles and Popularity

The TVP T 50/51 and The Machine

A Tier X Medium tank from Czechoslovakia, the TVP T 50/51 charges into battle with armed with the 100 mm AK1.

Alongside this tank we can also often find The Machine. This Tier X Heavy Mercenary tank also wields the 100 mm AK1.

When looking at battles, we can see that the Machine is more popular than the TVP T 50/51 in terms of how often it is used to fight.

Battles

 

So how are these tanks doing with these players? Are they dominating? Are they suffering? According to the data, the TVP T 50/51 is right around 49% and the Machine is around 51%

Win Rate

Let's take a deeper look into win rate. An average of win/loss doesn't tell us as much as some may think. As always, we should do is evaluate WHO is using this tank when it comes to skill.

Below we see an orange-ish / yellow-ish curve (representing the skill of ALL players) and a blue curve (representing the skill of the players using this tank). The higher the curve, the more players at that skill level are using the tank. We can see that most players are right in the middle / are usually successful at ~ 50% win/loss. The lower the skill and the higher the skill, the fewer the players.

Now we might ask: "there are players with a 100% win rate?!" or "there are players with 0% win rate?!" Those are likely players that played once in this tank and won or lost and then stopped. Super low occurrence outliers.

The TVP T 50/51 seems to be slightly more popular with the higher skilled players. The Machine is ONLY JUST slightly preferred by skill players (but barely).

Popularity & Skill

Let's look at these tanks' win/loss compared to skill. In the below pictures we SHOULD see two lines, one that represents the entire population's win/loss and another that represents this tank's win/loss.

For the Machine: We can't see two lines, because they are almost perfectly aligned. Meaning if a tanker (in general) wins 55% of the time, he or she will win 55% of the time in this tank. The tank itself is neither hurting the tanker's performance nor is it giving him or her an edge beyond their skill.

For the TVP T 50/51: Oof! Regardless of your skill, you are statistically more likely to lose in this tank than any other tier X tank.

Win/Loss & Skill


Edited by RaiBOT01, 01 May 2020 - 07:22 PM.

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RaiBOT01-x #2 Posted 29 April 2020 - 05:19 PM

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Weapons

Let's keep looking at these tanks and their firepower. While they use the same model weapon, the other characteristics of the vehicle (class, nation, weight, etc. etc.) mean the stats are not 100% identical.

The Machine and TVP T 50/51 are both very accurate. 77% to 79% of shots hit a foe.

Accuracy

 

The number of shots that pen their target is pretty average. ~52% for both:

Pen

 

Damage per shot that hits (super high numbers in the graph below are the tier X SPGs). Both tanks are near the bottom of the tier X tanks:

Damage per Shot Hit

 

Damage per shot that hits AND penetrates (super high numbers in the graph below are the tier X SPGs):

Still pretty low, but slightly higher than just hits (which makes sense as this graph takes bounced shots out of the analysis):

Damage per Shot Pen

 

Damage per battle (cumulative damage for all attacks in a battle):

HERE is where we see that looking at individual shots isn't enough. Its how many you can send downrange and do damage with. Both tanks are average to slightly above average for tier X tanks. The TVP T 50/51 is doing worse, however. It averages ~ 1,700 damage per battle while the Machine averages ~ 1,900:

Damage per Battle

Based on the above it looks like we can start to consider the following:
  1. It seems these vehicles are very similar but the TVP T 50/51 weapon is out-classed by the Machine.
  2. Skill doesn't seem to help you boost the TVP T 50/51's performance to overcome that gun delta.

Edited by RaiBOT01, 01 May 2020 - 07:29 PM.

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RaiBOT01-x #3 Posted 29 April 2020 - 05:19 PM

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Survival, etc. 

Let's keep looking.

How often do these tanks survive a match? Turns out they live ~ 25% of the matches and are destroyed the remaining 75%; on the lower end for tier X

Survival

 

How long do these tanks live for in a match? Both live for ~ 4min and 30s on average; on the lower end for tier X

Average Lifespan

 

How much damage do they usually block? The TVP T 50/51 blocks ~ 100 damage where The Machine blocks ~ 675 damage per battle. It makes sense considering the class difference, but its interesting to see that the higher blocked damage number isn't resulting in a longer lifespan.

Blocked Damage

So what's the summary?

We have analyzed numerical data on this tank.

We see that the TVP T 50/51 doesn't perform as well as the Machine, and the Machine isn't OP (51% is a smidge high but within a tolerable threshold).

Action Items

Based on this we plan on doing the following:

  • Revert our nerf to the TVP T 50/51's gun that was implemented in 4.6 and bring its reload rate back to 28 (it is currently at 31)
  • Change nothing on the Machine at this time

The above changes will take place tomorrow May 5th when servers return from maintenance.

In order to measure the impact of these changes once they are committed, we need at least 5,000 battles in the tank(s) to have enough data. Once we have that amount of info, we will report back here on what the results were and (if necessary) what the next steps will be.

If you have feedback about this process or have further questions, reach out! Stay tuned here for results of the test and for what the next tank we focus on is.

See you on the battlefield!

--CHUJI


Edited by RaiBOT01, 01 May 2020 - 07:35 PM.

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RaiBOT01-x #4 Posted 04 May 2020 - 10:57 AM

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Vampire_Izumi-p #5 Posted 04 May 2020 - 11:00 AM

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my friend will love this, he likes the TVP 50/51 better than the Machine and he even does better in it too.

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MASHMAN 90-x #6 Posted 04 May 2020 - 11:02 AM

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View PostVampire_Izumi, on 04 May 2020 - 11:00 AM, said:

my friend will love this, he likes the TVP 50/51 better than the Machine and he even does better in it too.

 

Me too, although i think Machine should have the worse reload to compensate for the armour. Least it's a step in the right direction.

Koneko Da Best-x #7 Posted 04 May 2020 - 11:09 AM

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So the TVP will still be worse than The Machine because The Machine has everything the TVP does plus armor.... I kinda knew not to expect much after the poor attempt at buffing the AMX 30B but this is still pretty disappointing to see as I thought there might be a chance you guys were gonna take balance more seriously like PC does.

FBPrime-x #8 Posted 04 May 2020 - 11:13 AM

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TVP really needs the inter clip nerf reverted.  The Machine will still have that over it as well.

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Vampire_Izumi-p #9 Posted 04 May 2020 - 11:16 AM

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View PostFBPrime, on 04 May 2020 - 08:13 PM, said:

TVP really needs the inter clip nerf reverted.  The Machine will still have that over it as well.

 

you can see if it is getting unnerfed, they are reverting the nerf from 4.6.

EDIT: i just checked and all they nerfed was the reload apparently from 28s to 31s....

View PostKoneko Da Best, on 04 May 2020 - 08:09 PM, said:

So the TVP will still be worse than The Machine because The Machine has everything the TVP does plus armor.... I kinda knew not to expect much after the poor attempt at buffing the AMX 30B but this is still pretty disappointing to see as I thought there might be a chance you guys were gonna take balance more seriously like PC does.

 

atleast they are trying to buff/nerf tanks. would it have been better if they just never did this at all and left everything the way it was?

Edited by Vampire_Izumi, 04 May 2020 - 11:23 AM.

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Koneko Da Best-x #10 Posted 04 May 2020 - 11:19 AM

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View PostVampire_Izumi, on 04 May 2020 - 05:16 AM, said:

 

you can see if it is getting unnerfed, they are reverting the nerf from 4.6.

 

atleast they are trying to buff/nerf tanks. would it have been better if they just never did this at all and left everything the way it was?

I respect that they're trying but it's a simple fact that if your gonna do something do it right or don't do it at all otherwise your just letting down the people who had expectations from you.



Vampire_Izumi-p #11 Posted 04 May 2020 - 11:48 AM

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i propose a top speed nerf to the Machine, reduce the Top Speed from 67 to 50. average players will do better in it due to it being harder to yolo in, but great players will do worse since they have less mobility to work with.

Edited by Vampire_Izumi, 04 May 2020 - 11:54 AM.

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LacqueredBacon-x #12 Posted 04 May 2020 - 11:54 AM

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The conclusions for the Machine are interesting. I don't have it so I have no first hand experience.  But in battle, there seems to be an inordinate number of yolo players in it.  Wouldn't this skew the results?  Have you tried to exclude games there players yolo'd to see how it is performing when the players are trying?  I imagine you would need a mathematical way to do this...perhaps remove all games where the player survived less than 2 confidence intervals beyond the mean?


 


DwarfOnDrugs-x #13 Posted 04 May 2020 - 12:25 PM

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TVP is literally just a bad machine. At least give the TVP the same gun stats.

Machine needs less Horse Power or a slower top speed. It shouldn’t be blitzing around the map like a light tank.


 


GWIAZDOR78 #14 Posted 04 May 2020 - 12:56 PM

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 I really think that TVP needs buff. Theat tank has no armor so at least should have for example:

  • Faster aiming;
  • Faster reloading;
  • Faster clip reloading;

On PC version this tank is a monster.



Archerr07-p #15 Posted 04 May 2020 - 01:19 PM

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PENETRATION NEED TO BE BUFF... 248 IS NOT ENOUGH.....

Edited by Archerr07, 04 May 2020 - 01:23 PM.


KeIIenn-x #16 Posted 04 May 2020 - 01:39 PM

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This is kinda disappointing. The intra clip reload really needed to be buffed for the tvp....

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CrucialCrossout-x #17 Posted 04 May 2020 - 02:08 PM

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Hey, Jeff Gregg it's great seeing that your trying to understand your own game and thank you for that, can't help but think that you guys don't understand the game well enough or even worse the players on here. I know a whole lot about the game and can learn more. I have a idea to make sure the game will be balance is to get the best player on here that are educated enough to assist you making a better game, we the players have a better understanding of the game. The best of the know what tanks are useful and other well not so useful ! Your charts mean nothing btw here's the reason why, TVP well bad players stay away from it since it's a awful tank and actually requires a lot of skill, now knowing this only players that or great or above that skill level end up playing the TVP and Inflating the TVap stats. Now for the Machine the reason it may look balance is because below average player heard the tank is the best or over power and  Indestructable therefore they do the much foolish things imaginable ! They yolo in the other side of the map and die within a minute with no damage and  cripples the team and which in other words project awful stats of the machine aka balance lol. 

natedaishmaster-x #18 Posted 04 May 2020 - 02:38 PM

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View PostCrucialCrossout, on 04 May 2020 - 06:08 AM, said:

Hey, Jeff Gregg it's great seeing that your trying to understand your own game and thank you for that, can't help but think that you guys don't understand the game well enough or even worse the players on here. I know a whole lot about the game and can learn more. I have a idea to make sure the game will be balance is to get the best player on here that are educated enough to assist you making a better game, we the players have a better understanding of the game. The best of the know what tanks are useful and other well not so useful ! Your charts mean nothing btw here's the reason why, TVP well bad players stay away from it since it's a awful tank and actually requires a lot of skill, now knowing this only players that or great or above that skill level end up playing the TVP and Inflating the TVap stats. Now for the Machine the reason it may look balance is because below average player heard the tank is the best or over power and  Indestructable therefore they do the much foolish things imaginable ! They yolo in the other side of the map and die within a minute with no damage and  cripples the team and which in other words project awful stats of the machine aka balance lol. 

 

What about the fact that The Machine win rate matches user win rate at all skill levels? Bad players do bad, good players do well. Why bother commenting if you don't read the article (or worse, ignore the data)?

Edited by natedaishmaster, 04 May 2020 - 02:39 PM.

3 MOE: Hellcat, Lycan, Sp1C, T20, M41 Bulldog, Motherland, STA 1, T95E2, Pershing, AMX 50 100, AMX 13 90, T54ltwt, T49, RU251, M46 Patton, Type 61, Leopard PTA, T54, E50, Batchat AP, Skoda T50, Centurion 7/1, Sharpshooter, T10, Conquerer, AMX 13 105, Sheridan, T-100LT, RHM PZW, M60, Chisel, M48 Patton, Leopard 1, E50M, Obj 140, Batchat 25t, TVP 50/51, AMX 50B, Valour, IS7, Super Conqueror, The Machine, Chieftain, FV215B, T110E4


Chim778 #19 Posted 04 May 2020 - 02:58 PM

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I thought the machine has the pre update 4.3 gun. Isn't is still better? I do not have a machine to confirm. What is the inter-clip reload on the machine?

 


Uv LIGHTz-x #20 Posted 04 May 2020 - 03:04 PM

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Wow I dont think 3 seconds isnt gonna change anything [edited].




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