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Let's Talk about Tanks! - FV215b (183) Edition


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MaxChaos24-x #1 Posted 22 May 2020 - 12:10 PM

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POSTED ON BEHALF OF JEFF GREGG

Hey everyone!

My name is Jeff Gregg, and I am the Lead Designer on World of Tanks Valor.

Welcome to "Let's talk about tanks!" The goal is to highlight specific tanks, one at a time, and really dig down into what makes them tick, how they are being used, and how approaches may be taken to improve them if necessary.

As you read you will see a lot of charts and data. All of this data compares the tank to every other tank of its tier over a sixty-day period. All data is pulled from Random Battles only.

This article is focused on the feared tier X tank destroyer from the U.K.: the FV215b (183). Let's get started!

 

Battles and Popularity

This Tier X beast is awesome and incredibly popular. Sporting a devastating 183mm weapon, the FV215b (183) can send a LOT of pain down-range.

How popular is it? Over the 60 day period it has been near the top of the battle count for all tier 10 tanks (that outlier is the Object 279 Early. We can see that everyone tried out their new toy before that tank normalized with the other tier X tank usage). There are a lot of tankers playing with this!

So how is this tank doing with these players? Is it dominating? Is it suffering? According to the data, it is performing at a very solid 50% win/loss rate:

Let's take a deeper look at the win rate. An average of win/loss doesn't tell us as much as some may think. The first thing we should do is evaluate WHO is using this tank when it comes to skill.

Below we see a grey curve (representing the skill of ALL players) and a blue curve (representing the skill of the players using this tank). The higher the curve, the more players at that skill level are using the tank. We can see that most players are right in the middle / are usually successful at ~ 50% win/loss. The lower the skill and the higher the skill, the fewer the players.

Now we might ask: "there are players with a 100% win rate?!" or "there are players with 0% win rate?!" Those are likely players that played once in this tank and won or lost and then stopped. Super low occurrence outliers.

The skill distribution of the players in the game is almost completely aligned with the skill distribution of the players using this tank. It is attractive to all skill levels, from the lower-skilled players to the super-professional tankers:

So now that we see that neither pros nor amateurs are influencing the tank more or less than any other tank, let's look at the tank's win/loss compared to skill. In the below picture we SHOULD see two lines, one that represents the entire population's win/loss and another that represents this tank's win/loss. We can't see two lines, because they are almost perfectly aligned. Meaning if a tanker (in general) wins 55% of the time, he or she will win 55% of the time in this tank. The tank itself is neither hurting the tanker's performance nor is it giving he or she an edge beyond their skill:

So where does that leave us? We now see that the tank wins about 1/2 of the battles it is used in. We also see that a tanker's effectiveness with the vehicle is the same as with any other vehicle; it neither gives an advantage or disadvantage above and beyond skill level.

Weapons

But let's keep looking, continuing with that awesome 183mm weapon. How often are players shooting? Here is the breakdown of the average and median shots per battle by shell type:

  • AP Mk. 1 (Standard round)
    • Average Shots per battle: 4
    • Median Shots per battle: 4
    • % of Shots per battle: 25%
  • HE Mk. 1 (Standard round)
    • Average Shots per battle: 1
    • Median Shots per battle: 1
    • % of Shots per battle: 6%
  • HESH Mk. 1 (Premium round)
    • Average Shots per battle: 11
    • Median Shots per battle: 11
    • % of Shots per battle: 69%

 

The above is interesting (and atypical). The average % of premium shells fired per battle for tier X tanks is 18%. But here, for this tank specifically, we see that almost 70% of the shells fired are the premium rounds.

Let's take a look at some more shot analysis:

Accuracy (hovers around 68%, the low numbers in the graph below are for the tier X SPGs):

The number of shots that pen their target (very effective penetration here, roughly 64% of shots pen. Low numbers in the graph below are for the tier X SPGs):

Damage per shot that hits (about 787hp per hit, super high numbers in the graph below are the tier X SPGs):

Damage per shot that hits AND penetrates (about 853, super high numbers in the graph below are the tier X SPGs):

Damage per battle (about 2,000 per battle, cumulative damage for all attacks in a battle):

Based on the above it looks like we can start to consider the following:

  1. Statistically the tank is balanced. If you JUST look at the numbers and graphs, you could even argue the tank is perfectly balanced when considering JUST win/loss.
  2. We aren't just considering math or just considering win/loss.
  3. People are drawn to the premium shells for this tank & the huge explosion and penetration potential those shells allow for. Even though these shells cost 20 gold / 8,000 silver per shot, meaning people spend an average of 88,000 silver a match on ammo alone.
  4. The tank's damage output is near the top of the heap in tier X

 

Survival, etc.

Let's keep looking.

How often does this tank survive a match? Turns out the survival is near the middle of the tier X tanks. This tank survives about 32% of the time.

How long does the tank live for in a match? It's about 5min and 5s.

How far does this tank move? Not much (which makes sense for a heavy TD at the higher tiers). Only SPGs move less:

How much damage does it usually block? Not much at all. Seems that if an enemy acquires this tank it will probably do damage to it if it can take a shot and hit:

Summary

We have analyzed numerical data on this tank.

We see that players of all skill levels are attracted to this tank, use this tank frequently, and are willing to send expensive shells downrange to help propel their team to victory. Much more so than any other tank at this tier.

We see that it hits like a demon but that fact isn't allowing it to live longer, survive more often, or win more often.

Action Items

Based on this we plan on doing the following:

  • Reduce the HESH damage from 1750 → 1450
  • Reduce the HESH penetration from 270 → 240
  • Reduce the HE damage from 1750 → 1450
  • Increase the ammo count from 12 → 20

The above changes will also impact the FV4005 and will take place on June 2nd.

In order to measure the impact of these changes once they are committed, we need at least 5,000 battles in the tank(s) to have enough data. Once we have that amount of info, we will report back here on what the results were and (if necessary) what the next steps will be.

If you have feedback about this process or have further questions, reach out! Stay tuned here for results of the test and for what the next tank we focus on is.

See you on the battlefield!



MaxChaos24-x #2 Posted 01 June 2020 - 10:51 AM

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The article is now Live.

DEZERTstorm03-x #3 Posted 01 June 2020 - 10:54 AM

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Amazing changes.

 

  • waffle nerfed a couple weeks ago
  • Deathstar HESH nerfed
  • 4005 HESH nerfed

 

all you guys need to do now is nerf arty, and the mitigation from broken tanks with broken mechanics will be finalized. EDIT: Then 850 alpha TDs etc. Some players going wild up in here lol.


Edited by DEZERTstorm03, 01 June 2020 - 12:39 PM.

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Vampire_Izumi-p #4 Posted 01 June 2020 - 10:54 AM

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i am very curious what it will do now in battle with those changes.

View PostDEZERTstorm03, on 01 June 2020 - 07:54 PM, said:

Amazing changes.

 

  • waffle nerfed a couple weeks ago
  • Deathstar HESH nerfed
  • 4005 HESH nerfed

 

all you guys need to do now is nerf arty, and the mitigation from broken tanks with broken mechanics will be finalized.

 

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killer etzi0-x #5 Posted 01 June 2020 - 10:58 AM

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Glad for the nerf, but I am a tad confused... after reading most of the OP, it seems WG is saying this tank is pretty much balanced, but were going to go ahead a nerf the damage by 18% anyways.

 

Ok, again, not complaining. But not sure I understand the thinking behind it. Did I miss something? 


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LargoGinganinja-x #6 Posted 01 June 2020 - 11:05 AM

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I think as far as I could read that it is hitting to hard and any ammo type except the premium hesh were redundant so they are trying to balance it to make the ammo types actually have a use plus they were not op but like the waffle broken mechanically so this should help

killer etzi0-x #7 Posted 01 June 2020 - 11:06 AM

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View PostLargoGinganinja, on 01 June 2020 - 05:05 AM, said:

I think as far as I could read that it is hitting to hard and any ammo type except the premium hesh were redundant so they are trying to balance it to make the ammo types actually have a use plus they were not op but like the waffle broken mechanically so this should help

Yes it will be nice knowing that it can not one shot most tier IX's, as it could prior to this nerf.


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MaxChaos24-x #8 Posted 01 June 2020 - 11:13 AM

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View Postkiller etzi0, on 01 June 2020 - 06:58 AM, said:

Glad for the nerf, but I am a tad confused... after reading most of the OP, it seems WG is saying this tank is pretty much balanced, but were going to go ahead a nerf the damage by 18% anyways.

 

Ok, again, not complaining. But not sure I understand the thinking behind it. Did I miss something? 

 

Being balanced doesn't always mean there isn't something that needs to be addressed. 

 

In this case, even though the overall tank performance was balanced, there was an issue with the ammo loadout balance. Premium ammo being the main loaded ammo is outside the norm. This change is to rebalance the power of the ammo as a tank shouldn't almost solely rely on Premium ammo to do well / the Premium ammo shouldn't be so powerful that it becomes the de facto default ammo used. 

 

We should hopefully see more players start to use more AP rounds for normal engagements and HESH being used more situationally instead of being the general use ammo. 



CptBadger-x #9 Posted 01 June 2020 - 11:14 AM

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An average of 11 HESH shots per battle? :amazed: Seems rather high?

v_vblood #10 Posted 01 June 2020 - 11:20 AM

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it only have 12 ammo, average amount is 11 per match?

R35T NO MORE-x #11 Posted 01 June 2020 - 11:22 AM

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View PostMaxChaos24, on 01 June 2020 - 11:13 AM, said:

 

Being balanced doesn't always mean there isn't something that needs to be addressed. 

 

In this case, even though the overall tank performance was balanced, there was an issue with the ammo loadout balance. Premium ammo being the main loaded ammo is outside the norm. This change is to rebalance the power of the ammo as a tank shouldn't almost solely rely on Premium ammo to do well / the Premium ammo shouldn't be so powerful that it becomes the de facto default ammo used. 

 

We should hopefully see more players start to use more AP rounds for normal engagements and HESH being used more situationally instead of being the general use ammo. 

 

This is great to see and I completely agree. 

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inggrish-p #12 Posted 01 June 2020 - 11:30 AM

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Hi Max, please can we see the same set of statistics and graphs for the FV4005? You've applied the same nerfs, yet I see the FV4005 as the inferior machine by a long way.

sergeant-slow741-p #13 Posted 01 June 2020 - 11:31 AM

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View PostMaxChaos24, on 01 June 2020 - 03:13 AM, said:

 

Being balanced doesn't always mean there isn't something that needs to be addressed. 

 

In this case, even though the overall tank performance was balanced, there was an issue with the ammo loadout balance. Premium ammo being the main loaded ammo is outside the norm. This change is to rebalance the power of the ammo as a tank shouldn't almost solely rely on Premium ammo to do well / the Premium ammo shouldn't be so powerful that it becomes the de facto default ammo used. 

 

We should hopefully see more players start to use more AP rounds for normal engagements and HESH being used more situationally instead of being the general use ammo. 

 


Edited by sergeant-slow741, 01 June 2020 - 11:31 AM.

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zZGROGZz-x #14 Posted 01 June 2020 - 11:34 AM

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View PostCptBadger, on 01 June 2020 - 12:14 PM, said:

An average of 11 HESH shots per battle? :amazed: Seems rather high?

 

View Postv_vblood, on 01 June 2020 - 12:20 PM, said:

it only have 12 ammo, average amount is 11 per match?

 

I’ve managed to blap off all 12 rounds in my Death Star in one match. And every single one either missed or bounced.


Im kinda glad WG is doing this to bothe the death star and 4005, the HESH shell is massively broken in those tanks, and as others have pointed out, smashing tier 9s for all their health was rediculous.

Im also kinda glad to see an ammo increase, although I doubt many but the purples will really benefit from that.
Over all though, cheers WG. Now to address arty.......


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Restless_Vermin #15 Posted 01 June 2020 - 11:39 AM

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Gotta see how it goes

11 shots average per game? Eh?

Most of the ones I see take a shot and are slapped around by arty



CptBadger-x #16 Posted 01 June 2020 - 11:40 AM

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View PostzZGROGZz, on 01 June 2020 - 11:34 AM, said:

I've managed to blap off all 12 rounds in my Death Star in one match. And every single one either missed or bounced.

 

Sure, but 11 on average? Just seems high given its only got 12 rounds :amazed:



MASHMAN 90-x #17 Posted 01 June 2020 - 11:44 AM

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View PostMaxChaos24, on 01 June 2020 - 11:13 AM, said:

 

Being balanced doesn't always mean there isn't something that needs to be addressed. 

 

In this case, even though the overall tank performance was balanced, there was an issue with the ammo loadout balance. Premium ammo being the main loaded ammo is outside the norm. This change is to rebalance the power of the ammo as a tank shouldn't almost solely rely on Premium ammo to do well / the Premium ammo shouldn't be so powerful that it becomes the de facto default ammo used. 

 

We should hopefully see more players start to use more AP rounds for normal engagements and HESH being used more situationally instead of being the general use ammo. 

 

While we are on the subject Max, can you do something about that Third Non Premium HE Round? It's not just on the Deathstar but tanks like Draugen and Charioteer, it makes no sense to "cheap out" and use Regular HE due to the damage/pen on the Premium Round.

 

Charioteer

DAMAGE
390/480/480HP
PENETRATION
268/210/105MM

 

There is no point to load regular HE Ammo as HESH Doubles the Pen and No Damage deductions. Can i suggest a Damage increase to the Regular HE where HESH is a thing?

 

Charioteer

DAMAGE
390/480/580HP OR 390/480/560HP
PENETRATION
268/210/105MM

 

FV215b 183

DAMAGE
1150/1450/1450HP
PENETRATION
310/240/92MM

 

Proposed Change:

DAMAGE
1150/1450/1750HP
PENETRATION
310/240/105MM

 

This means if you want to gamble, you have that boomstick, Regular HE has a little purpose, or can have that mega HESH Pen for Reduced Damage so if you shoot at a Maus, taking AP aside, the Regular HE may be the better choice due to more damage on splash. Please consider it and give Normal HE a purpose or make it HEAT round (Premium Ammo) with 350 pen and 1150 Damage like so. or remove Round 3 altogether.

 

DAMAGE
1150/1450/1150HP
PENETRATION
310/240/350MM


KilledByPing-p #18 Posted 01 June 2020 - 11:50 AM

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Finaly. Now remove arty and Mb people will start to play tier 10 or even return. 

LacqueredBacon-x #19 Posted 01 June 2020 - 11:51 AM

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These are good changes.  Good job.  But were you guys really confused over why players fired only HESH?  It is because it is not accurate and even if you miss, you still do quite a bit of damage.  These changes were definitely needed but I am not sure more players will fire AP.  Those same accuracy issues, combined with the long load time, you can't really afford to miss one shot.  The extra ammo is a good idea though.


 


MaxChaos24-x #20 Posted 01 June 2020 - 12:00 PM

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View PostMASHMAN 90, on 01 June 2020 - 07:44 AM, said:

 

While we are on the subject Max, can you do something about that Third Non Premium HE Round? It's not just on the Deathstar but tanks like Draugen and Charioteer, it makes no sense to "cheap out" and use Regular HE due to the damage/pen on the Premium Round.

 

Charioteer

DAMAGE
390/480/480HP
PENETRATION
268/210/105MM

 

There is no point to load regular HE Ammo as HESH Doubles the Pen and No Damage deductions. Can i suggest a Damage increase to the Regular HE where HESH is a thing?

 

Charioteer

DAMAGE
390/480/580HP OR 390/480/560HP
PENETRATION
268/210/105MM

 

FV215b 183

DAMAGE
1150/1450/1450HP
PENETRATION
310/240/92MM

 

Proposed Change:

DAMAGE
1150/1450/1750HP
PENETRATION
310/240/105MM

 

This means if you want to gamble, you have that boomstick, Regular HE has a little purpose, or can have that mega HESH Pen for Reduced Damage so if you shoot at a Maus, taking AP aside, the Regular HE may be the better choice due to more damage on splash. Please consider it and give Normal HE a purpose or make it HEAT round (Premium Ammo) with 350 pen and 1150 Damage like so. or remove Round 3 altogether.

 

DAMAGE
1150/1450/1150HP
PENETRATION
310/240/350MM

 

For this tank in particular, for the HE to get more damage, it will have to take a hit to penetration. If you take a look at its closest cousin, the JagdPanzer E-100, the new HE stats make it more in-line for what an HE round should be compared to other vehicles. It gets a bit more damage and penetration with a slower RoF. 

 

Frankly speaking, no one should really be using the HE round. 






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