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Let's Talk about Tanks - TVP 50/51 - Follow Up


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MaxChaos24-x #1 Posted 28 May 2020 - 01:02 PM

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POSTED ON BEHALF OF JEFF GREGG

Welcome

Hey everyone!

My name is Jeff Gregg, and I am the Lead Designer on World of Tanks Valor.

Welcome back to "Let's talk about tanks! TVP T 50/51 edition".

As a reminder, the goal was to highlight specific tanks, one at a time, and really dig down into what makes them tick, how they are being used, and how approaches may be taken to improve them if necessary.

Let's see how our changes to the TVP T 50/51 impacted the game: 

What we did

As a reminder: the following was done to this tank:

  • Revert our nerf to the TVP T 50/51's gun that was implemented in 4.6 and bring its reload rate back to 28 (it is currently at 31)

Results

Let's take a look at what occurred.

All data from below is from Random Battle from May 6th (first full day) to May 26th.

Here is a breakdown of what we saw:

  • Battles: 57,421
  • Avg Win Rate: 51.48%
    • Up from ~ 49%
    • Matches Machine's previous ~ 51%
    • Slightly above Machine's ~ 50% now
    •  
  • Avg Survival: 26.62% 
    • Up from previous ~ 25%
    • Slightly above Machine's 25.37%
      •  
  • Avg Lifespan: 4min 46s 
    • Up from 4min 30s (a slight increase of lifespan)
    • Above Machine's 4min 26s
    •  
  • Shots Pen: 54.28%
    • Up from previous ~ 52%
    • Machine still ~ 52%
    •  
  • Accuracy: 77.22%
    • No Change
    •  
  • Damage per battle: 1,918
    • Up from 1,700
    • In line with Machine's current 1,900
    •  
  • Popularity after the change (feel like it's not any more popular with pros and not popular at all with lower-skill):
      •  
  • Win after the change (x-ref with skill) which is better than before:

Action Items and Next Steps:

For now, we are going to keep watching and make no further changes. I am a bit worried that its win rate will keep creeping up, but I want to know that's the case vs. assuming its the case.

Thanks and see you on the battlefield!


Edited by MaxChaos24, 28 May 2020 - 01:30 PM.


MaxChaos24-x #2 Posted 11 June 2020 - 10:08 AM

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The article is now LIVE.

Rotcat-x #3 Posted 11 June 2020 - 10:54 AM

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"aAhHHhH, i'M wOrRiEd iT'S w/R wIlL cReEp uP"

 

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MrWiggles24 #4 Posted 11 June 2020 - 11:36 AM

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The lack of popularity is because the machine is so much better. 

KeIIenn-x #5 Posted 11 June 2020 - 03:51 PM

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Its only able to achieve a higher win rate than the machine because of two reasons: 

1.) Mostly higher skilled players play the TVP. Everyone plays The Machine because it’s just better.

2.) The Machines winrate is balanced out bc (much like the 183 and Waffle) their are usually multiple vehicles on both sides of the battle.


[TRND0] Tornado 


natedaishmaster-x #6 Posted 11 June 2020 - 04:10 PM

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View PostKellen EU, on 11 June 2020 - 07:51 AM, said:

Its only able to achieve a higher win rate than the machine because of two reasons: 

1.) Mostly higher skilled players play the TVP. Everyone plays The Machine because it’s just better.

2.) The Machines winrate is balanced out bc (much like the 183 and Waffle) their are usually multiple vehicles on both sides of the battle.

 

Yeah the TVP definitely got a boost in good players playing it since the change (similar to the 30b) so that's the obvious reason for the increase in win rate, which I think WG actually understands hence the decision to not make any more changes. The Machine isn't OP, at least at the skill ranges that they compare to. If you go back and look at the graph, the Machine actually does very slightly worse than average for the people playing it. It looks OP but the gun really lets it down and the armor is pretty bad other than when pushing someone. It is a bit OP in a platoon (or comp) or when played by really good players but it looks like WG balances around ~2 standard deviations in win rate and the Machine looks balanced in that region

3 MOE: Hellcat, Lycan, Sp1C, T20, M41 Bulldog, Motherland, STA 1, T95E2, Pershing, AMX 50 100, AMX 13 90, T54ltwt, T49, RU251, M46 Patton, Type 61, Leopard PTA, T54, E50, Batchat AP, Skoda T50, Centurion 7/1, Sharpshooter, T10, Conquerer, AMX 13 105, Sheridan, T-100LT, RHM PZW, M60, Chisel, M48 Patton, Leopard 1, E50M, Obj 140, Batchat 25t, TVP 50/51, AMX 50B, Valour, IS7, Super Conqueror, The Machine, Chieftain, FV215B, T110E4


SandM9-x #7 Posted 11 June 2020 - 04:25 PM

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I'm having a hard time winnowing out stuff like who is playing and how many matches are they playing especially in comparison to the Machine since they make such a point of comparing. I'm sure it's there some where just buried. Just a reference to more skilled players vs. less skilled and more of the former than latter.

Welcome to the forums. Where you can call people stupid, just don't call them passive-aggressive.

 

 


natedaishmaster-x #8 Posted 11 June 2020 - 04:28 PM

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View PostSandM9, on 11 June 2020 - 08:25 AM, said:

I'm having a hard time winnowing out stuff like who is playing and how many matches are they playing especially in comparison to the Machine since they make such a point of comparing. I'm sure it's there some where just buried. Just a reference to more skilled players vs. less skilled and more of the former than latter.

 

The data for The Machine is in the original article, this is just how the TVP has changed since they buffed it

3 MOE: Hellcat, Lycan, Sp1C, T20, M41 Bulldog, Motherland, STA 1, T95E2, Pershing, AMX 50 100, AMX 13 90, T54ltwt, T49, RU251, M46 Patton, Type 61, Leopard PTA, T54, E50, Batchat AP, Skoda T50, Centurion 7/1, Sharpshooter, T10, Conquerer, AMX 13 105, Sheridan, T-100LT, RHM PZW, M60, Chisel, M48 Patton, Leopard 1, E50M, Obj 140, Batchat 25t, TVP 50/51, AMX 50B, Valour, IS7, Super Conqueror, The Machine, Chieftain, FV215B, T110E4


MaxChaos24-x #9 Posted 11 June 2020 - 04:47 PM

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View PostKellen EU, on 11 June 2020 - 11:51 AM, said:

Its only able to achieve a higher win rate than the machine because of two reasons: 

1.) Mostly higher skilled players play the TVP. Everyone plays The Machine because it’s just better.

2.) The Machines winrate is balanced out bc (much like the 183 and Waffle) their are usually multiple vehicles on both sides of the battle.

 

For #1, the very last picture shows the WR in relation to player skill. Everyone benefited from the change, not just a certain skill level of players. While not shown, the same goes for the rest of the data performance, it saw the same increase for all players no matter the skill level. :honoring:

 

 



HybredXero-x #10 Posted 11 June 2020 - 05:37 PM

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give it more time to let the numbers balance out.  there will most likely be a drop in play after a while.

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Derekthetree-x #11 Posted 12 June 2020 - 01:20 AM

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Spot the line in the top graph that shows allowing all players to earn a free tier X tank is a bad idea...

Tizni79-x #12 Posted 29 June 2020 - 06:55 PM

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They took what was special about the tank away gave it to the machine and added armor and wonder why people don't want to play it....shocking...as for the win rate going up yeah the lower skilled players refuse to play what is effectively hard mode of the machine.   

 

make it special again and people will use it for flavor instead of the usual... lets make everything average.  



Poppyluv77-p #13 Posted 06 July 2020 - 11:20 PM

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Nerf its tracks and let people know they should plan their trips better.

 

Machine doesn’t get nerfed even though it has top speed like a medium, has extremely troll frontal armor... Arty isn’t even addressed, Chisel gets nerfed (haven’t seen 1 of those in quite awhile now), haven’t seen a TVP since I don’t know when, 430u keeps its troll heavy tank armor and it’s great camo rating for a medium...MM still completely busted but unaddressed 

 

Yea great job guys

 

Hey WG,

 

No $ from me until more meaningful changes made, but you’ll probably have to hire a whole new team 

 

 



Tizni79-x #14 Posted 10 July 2020 - 03:51 AM

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I think the KPZ 50 T is a better tier 10 tank than this one currently is.  Better armor, better pen,  same damage per shot with a better chance of hitting your shot.  Same top forward speed.   Also sees tier 7 tanks...better.


Edited by Tizni79, 10 July 2020 - 03:54 AM.


FusionStar287-x #15 Posted 10 July 2020 - 03:58 AM

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View PostTizni79, on 09 July 2020 - 10:51 PM, said:

I think the KPZ 50 T is a better tier 10 tank than this one currently is.  Better armor, better pen,  same damage per shot with a better chance of hitting your shot.  Same top forward speed.   

The KPZ also has significantly worse mobility and acceleration (which means it's notably slower in most cases when not driving downhill), it has worse DPM, its view range is 20m lower, and, of course, it doesn't have a four shell autoloader that can be emptied in just ~5 seconds.


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Tizni79-x #16 Posted 10 July 2020 - 04:06 AM

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View PostFusionStar287, on 10 July 2020 - 03:58 AM, said:

The KPZ also has significantly worse mobility and acceleration (which means it's notably slower in most cases when not driving downhill), it has worse DPM, its view range is 20m lower, and, of course, it doesn't have a four shell autoloader that can be emptied in just ~5 seconds.

 

All those things are true but troll pen makes most of those shots....pink  and i just terrorized a IS7 in one (kpz)

Edited by Tizni79, 10 July 2020 - 04:07 AM.


FusionStar287-x #17 Posted 10 July 2020 - 04:10 AM

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View PostTizni79, on 09 July 2020 - 11:06 PM, said:

 

All those things are true but troll pen makes most of those shots....pink  and i just terrorized a IS7 in one (kpz)

They both have the same premium pen/ammo type, though, and their standard ammo only have a 20mm of pen difference between the two as well. To be fair I'm pretty sure that I'd agree about the KPZ being better tier for tier (after all, it's arguably the best tier IX in the game), but if I had to be in one or the other in a tier X match I'd choose the T50/51 easily.


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Tizni79-x #18 Posted 10 July 2020 - 04:16 AM

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View PostFusionStar287, on 10 July 2020 - 04:10 AM, said:

They both have the same premium pen/ammo type, though, and their standard ammo only have a 20mm of pen difference between the two as well. To be fair I'm pretty sure that I'd agree about the KPZ being better tier for tier (after all, it's arguably the best tier IX in the game), but if I had to be in one or the other in a tier X match I'd choose the T50/51 easily.

 

Should you have to rely on premium ammo to make a tank worth it?  Wasn't there just a "NEEDED" nerf that made using premium ammo not the standard to make a tank great.

 

The line was punishing to go down to get the tank and don't get me wrong I loved the tank and thought it had great potential...I just think it was overnerfed and giving just about all those things to the machine I thought was a joke.


Edited by Tizni79, 10 July 2020 - 04:25 AM.


FusionStar287-x #19 Posted 10 July 2020 - 04:39 AM

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View PostTizni79, on 09 July 2020 - 11:16 PM, said:

 

Should you have to rely on premium ammo to make a tank worth it?  Wasn't there just a "NEEDED" nerf that made using premium ammo not the standard to make a tank great.

 

The line was punishing to go down to get the tank and don't get me wrong I loved the tank and thought it had great potential...I just think it was overnerfed and giving just about all those things to the machine I thought was a joke.

I mean, I don't really feel the need to fire premium ammo all that often in the TVP anyway, especially considering how good it is at catching enemies' flanks. I do agree that the TVP was overly nerfed originally, but since its last nerf was reversed the tank has felt well balanced (even if I wouldn't mind having its intra-clip reload un-nerfed as well). 

 

And as for the Machine, well, I've covered the advantages and disadvantages between the two quite a few times before. It was a bad move to nerf the TVP as hard as it was just to release the Machine with the same, mostly unnerfed gun, but now days I feel that both tanks are mostly fine as they are and each have their own niche that they fill better than the other.


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