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Let's Talk about Tanks - Chisel - Follow up


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MaxChaos24-x #1 Posted 01 July 2020 - 12:33 PM

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Posted on behalf of the Design Team

 

Welcome

Hey everyone!

My name is Jeff Gregg, and I am the Lead Designer on World of Tanks Valor.

Welcome back to "Let's talk about tanks! Chisel edition".

As a reminder, the goal was to highlight specific tanks, one at a time, and really dig down into what makes them tick, how they are being used, and how approaches may be taken to improve them if necessary.

Let's see how our changes to the Chisel impacted the game.

What we did

As a reminder: the following was done to this tank:

  • Reduce the view range from 420 to 400 to try to counter the unusually high spotting/radio assist damage
  • Increase the reload from 9 to 9.5 to lower the DPM and average damage per battle
    • DPM: 2,666 → 2,528

Action Items and Next Steps

We need to let this tank battle it out more and continue to monitor. To be honest, the # of shells fired downrange being identical combined with no real move in other statistics COULD indicate we need to further edit this vehicle, but we want to make sure of that before reacting.

We will continue to watch this tank and report back once we get a larger sample size of information.

Results

Let's take a look at what occurred.

All data from below is from Random Battle from May 20th till June 17th

 

Battles: 58,400

  • The usage of this tank was lower after the change. The same decrease is observed for all Tier X Mediums due to current game events that encouraged players to use other vehicles, so the lower number isn't a serious concern. 
  • ~ 2,000 battles a day (down from ~ 7,600 a day)

 

Win Rate: 54.02%

  • The win rate is basically unchanged.
  • It went from 54.123% to 54.02% which is a drop, but a meaninglessly tiny one.

 

Damage per Hit: 266.0

  • Damage per hit didn't change, which makes sense.

 

Damage per Penning Hit: 374.2

  • Damage when penetrating is basically identical which makes sense

 

Damage Per Battle: 2,137

  • Damage is (interestingly) up from previous. About 5% more damage per battle on average. Shots per Battle

 

Survival Rate: 28.3%

  • Survival is actually up a significant amount from previous analysis' 26.7

 

Lifespan: 4min 29s

  • The lifespan is down by one second. Small change is within a tolerable margin of error.
  • The previous average was also 4min 30s.

 

Shots per battle: Here is the average shots per battle per tank. No meaningful change occurred

  • Previous:
    • _120mm_APDS_L15A4 = 7
    • _120mm_APDS_L15A4_DU = 3
    • _120mm_HESH_L31 = 1
  • After:
    • ​_120mm_APDS_L15A4 = 7
    • _120mm_APDS_L15A4_DU = 3
    • _120mm_HESH_L31 = 1

 

Popularity: Mostly the same popularity with (perhaps) a bit more interest from our skilled tankers.

  • Before:
  • After:

 

Win Rate by Skill: This is interesting. The win rate cross-referenced by skill dropped for all skills by ~ 0.5% which could indicate that the change is in the right direction (but the change is small enough we are not 100% sure on this)

  • Before:
  • After:

 

 

We will continue to watch this tank and report back once we get a larger sample size of information.

Thanks and see you on the battlefield!

 



MaxChaos24-x #2 Posted 09 July 2020 - 12:10 PM

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The article is now Live. 

Vampire_Izumi-p #3 Posted 09 July 2020 - 12:23 PM

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only a 74% battles per day difference, nothing major. :)

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MaxMiner11-x #4 Posted 09 July 2020 - 02:04 PM

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From the limited graphs, it appears use has dropped off drastically. With the lower skilled players dropping off the most which has the effect of raising the win rate of the tank.

KeIIenn-x #5 Posted 09 July 2020 - 02:44 PM

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Big scary statistics too good needs nerf

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Poppyluv77-p #6 Posted 09 July 2020 - 03:04 PM

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SMH. Unbelievably flawed process. Also is he aware of the new dumbed down participation trophy “contract” (using that term loosely) in progress? He needs to seriously wait for a few months until every sub 45% win rate player, who were unable to get just 2 High Calibers in the original contract, has had a chance to play many games in this tank.

 

Does he even know that statistics have interpretive context?

 

I’m so over this development team’s approach and is exactly why I no longer support this game with my $. Formerly I was a very very significant $ supporter. Never again unless real changes that actually matter are made. I’m not counting on it.



Poppyluv77-p #7 Posted 09 July 2020 - 03:22 PM

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What is exactly is the goal here? To push every single tank in the game to a global win rate of 50%?

 

I’m not sure I know what he’s even attempting to accomplish anymore. Because if 50% win rate is the goal, then certain tanks that were recently nerfed, didn’t need the nerfs. Or, is it a case of moving the goalposts constantly? In one case, a nerf was explained by saying that he wanted to encourage a different ammo use pattern, another was to encourage better trip planning... this is pretty ridiculous.

 

I think time could be better spent looking at nerfing Arty one-shot capability, fixing busted mm, and other broken elements in the game. Ah whatever I guess, Nero fiddles...



MaxMiner11-x #8 Posted 09 July 2020 - 03:31 PM

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The before and after graphs need to control for player global win rate. That is the only way to get an accurate analysis of the changes.

Controlling for player global win rate is not the same as showing a graph of player win rate vs number of games before and after.  One needs to compare the two.  Then weight the other statistics such as average damage and tank winrate so that it was like player global win rate vs number of games was identical before and after.

Will your computers program not do this?

Really for all these tank "analysis" they need to control for player global win rate.  Weight the number of games compared to players global win rate, so that it matches up with the overall distribution of games played per player global win rate.

Without controlling for the variable of player global win rate, these analysis are flawed and less usesfull.

Poppyluv77-p #9 Posted 09 July 2020 - 03:43 PM

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View PostMaxMiner11, on 09 July 2020 - 03:31 PM, said:

The before and after graphs need to control for player global win rate. That is the only way to get an accurate analysis of the changes.

Controlling for player global win rate is not the same as showing a graph of player win rate vs number of games before and after. One needs to compare the two. Then weight the other statistics such as average damage and tank winrate so that it was like player global win rate vs number of games was identical before and after.

Will your computers program not do this?

Really for all these tank "analysis" they need to control for player global win rate. Weight the number of games compared to players global win rate, so that it matches up with the overall distribution of games played per player global win rate.

Without controlling for the variable of player global win rate, these analysis are flawed and less usesfull.

 

This whole process is flawed. I’m not even sure he knows what the goal is. Win rate normalization? Appeasing complainers? Better trip planning? Encouraging different ammo use? He’s all over the place.

MaxMiner11-x #10 Posted 09 July 2020 - 04:29 PM

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View PostPoppyluv77, on 09 July 2020 - 07:43 AM, said:

 

This whole process is flawed. I’m not even sure he knows what the goal is. Win rate normalization? Appeasing complainers? Better trip planning? Encouraging different ammo use? He’s all over the place.

The goal? That is a good question.

 

If the goal is to make the Chisel mediocre at best, less people grinding out the massive contract will be the result.   Make no mistake the contract is still a massive grind.



Poppyluv77-p #11 Posted 09 July 2020 - 04:45 PM

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View PostMaxMiner11, on 09 July 2020 - 04:29 PM, said:

The goal? That is a good question.

 

If the goal is to make the Chisel mediocre at best, less people grinding out the massive contract will be the result.   Make no mistake the contract is still a massive grind.

 

Probably true about it being a massive grind. But it doesn’t have the skill based barriers to entry the first contract had. No 2x High Caliber and no 8x spotting your hit points in damage requirements. People who couldn’t meet these requirements before can now get the tank just by sheer brute force aka massive grind 

Vampire_Izumi-p #12 Posted 09 July 2020 - 04:49 PM

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View PostPoppyluv77, on 10 July 2020 - 12:43 AM, said:

 

This whole process is flawed. I’m not even sure he knows what the goal is. Win rate normalization? Appeasing complainers? Better trip planning? Encouraging different ammo use? He’s all over the place.

that seems to kinda fit, due to them saying the Fv215B 183 was blanced stat wise but still nerfed it  due to over usage of premium ammo. sure the extra rounds are nice. but only for good players. the gun in all honesty is pretty awful. i would much rather play a Jagdpanzer E 100 with no equipment than a FV215B 183 with equipment.

i do get that people wanted the premium ammo to get nerfed, but atleast buff the gun handling, so it can have a better chance at hitting the side of a barn and not the ground/space.

 

but it seems like they are 100% fine nerfing tanks by throwing the entire book at them.

but when it comes to buffing, they seem very hesitant or even resistant (K-91) and will even nerf aspects that a tank needs, just to buff other aspects. (Object 268 Version 4)

 

i in all honesty do not understand some of these changes. the nerfs to brand new lines, the nerfing of tanks that did not need nerfs (Type 5 heavy) and the buffing of tanks that did not need buffs ( Conqueror, M60)

 

the chisel imo is a poor man's M48 patton. the M48 patton is a much better tank.

M48 has better:

RoF - massively better

DPM - massively better

gun handling - massively better

view range - massively better

better premium ammo - massively better

aim time - massively better

 

chisel has better:

damage per shot by 10 - slightly better

penetration by 2 - slightly better

better accuracy - decently better (0.33 VS 0.36)

mobility - massively better

better concealment - greatly better

better HE - massively better

 

thats all that comes to mind, the armor on both is decent to poor. but the M48 just has a ton more going for it over the Chisel.

and now with the Valour around, there is no point in playing a chisel.

 

sorry for the rant. this is just my honest opinion.


Edited by Vampire_Izumi, 09 July 2020 - 04:59 PM.

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Poppyluv77-p #13 Posted 09 July 2020 - 05:38 PM

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View PostVampire_Izumi, on 09 July 2020 - 04:49 PM, said:

that seems to kinda fit, due to them saying the Fv215B 183 was blanced stat wise but still nerfed it  due to over usage of premium ammo. sure the extra rounds are nice. but only for good players. the gun in all honesty is pretty awful. i would much rather play a Jagdpanzer E 100 with no equipment than a FV215B 183 with equipment.

i do get that people wanted the premium ammo to get nerfed, but atleast buff the gun handling, so it can have a better chance at hitting the side of a barn and not the ground/space.

 

but it seems like they are 100% fine nerfing tanks by throwing the entire book at them.

but when it comes to buffing, they seem very hesitant or even resistant (K-91) and will even nerf aspects that a tank needs, just to buff other aspects. (Object 268 Version 4)

 

i in all honesty do not understand some of these changes. the nerfs to brand new lines, the nerfing of tanks that did not need nerfs (Type 5 heavy) and the buffing of tanks that did not need buffs ( Conqueror, M60)

 

the chisel imo is a poor man's M48 patton. the M48 patton is a much better tank.

M48 has better:

RoF - massively better

DPM - massively better

gun handling - massively better

view range - massively better

better premium ammo - massively better

aim time - massively better

 

chisel has better:

damage per shot by 10 - slightly better

penetration by 2 - slightly better

better accuracy - decently better (0.33 VS 0.36)

mobility - massively better

better concealment - greatly better

better HE - massively better

 

thats all that comes to mind, the armor on both is decent to poor. but the M48 just has a ton more going for it over the Chisel.

and now with the Valour around, there is no point in playing a chisel.

 

sorry for the rant. this is just my honest opinion.

 

it was a very nice rant though. I enjoyed the read 

FusionStar287-x #14 Posted 09 July 2020 - 05:52 PM

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View PostPoppyluv77, on 09 July 2020 - 10:43 AM, said:

 

This whole process is flawed. I’m not even sure he knows what the goal is. Win rate normalization? Appeasing complainers? Better trip planning? Encouraging different ammo use? He’s all over the place.

I thought you'd be happy if WG were just appeasing complainers, seeing as that's all you ever do here.


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FusionStar287-x #15 Posted 09 July 2020 - 05:55 PM

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View PostVampire_Izumi, on 09 July 2020 - 11:49 AM, said:

that seems to kinda fit, due to them saying the Fv215B 183 was blanced stat wise but still nerfed it  due to over usage of premium ammo. sure the extra rounds are nice. but only for good players. the gun in all honesty is pretty awful. i would much rather play a Jagdpanzer E 100 with no equipment than a FV215B 183 with equipment.

i do get that people wanted the premium ammo to get nerfed, but atleast buff the gun handling, so it can have a better chance at hitting the side of a barn and not the ground/space.

 

but it seems like they are 100% fine nerfing tanks by throwing the entire book at them.

but when it comes to buffing, they seem very hesitant or even resistant (K-91) and will even nerf aspects that a tank needs, just to buff other aspects. (Object 268 Version 4)

 

i in all honesty do not understand some of these changes. the nerfs to brand new lines, the nerfing of tanks that did not need nerfs (Type 5 heavy) and the buffing of tanks that did not need buffs ( Conqueror, M60)

 

the chisel imo is a poor man's M48 patton. the M48 patton is a much better tank.

M48 has better:

RoF - massively better

DPM - massively better

gun handling - massively better

view range - massively better

better premium ammo - massively better

aim time - massively better

 

chisel has better:

damage per shot by 10 - slightly better

penetration by 2 - slightly better

better accuracy - decently better (0.33 VS 0.36)

mobility - massively better

better concealment - greatly better

better HE - massively better

 

thats all that comes to mind, the armor on both is decent to poor. but the M48 just has a ton more going for it over the Chisel.

and now with the Valour around, there is no point in playing a chisel.

 

sorry for the rant. this is just my honest opinion.

So the M48 Patton has a much better gun and better view range while the Chisel has much better speed/mobility and a better camo rating. That sounds like a fair trade off in capabilities between the tanks, as each could be better in specific situations, and at the very least I definitely wouldn't say the M48 outclasses the Chisel. I do think the M48 is still a better tank because I personally find its better gun to be worth more than the Chisel's better mobility, but there's no denying that there's a trade-off in notable advantages between the two. 


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Poppyluv77-p #16 Posted 09 July 2020 - 06:11 PM

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View PostFusionStar287, on 09 July 2020 - 05:52 PM, said:

I'd have thought you'd be happy if WG were just appeasing complainers, seeing as that's all you ever do here.

 

Lol. They give plenty of reasons which more than offset any reason to be positive about the state and direction of this game. On top of that, there were and are countless more complaints about Arty than the Chisel. Countless more complaints about mm than the Chisel. The only complaints I’ve seen appeased thus far is the one-shot HESH whiners. I don’t own either HESH by the way, only pointing out the inconsistencies running rampant right now. You, as the self-appointed forum apologist sheriff need to holster up, giddy up, and set everyone straight before WG actually finds out people are getting increasingly frustrated, angry, and displeased with the current state and direction of this game.

 

But hey, at least you write well and don’t call people names.



FusionStar287-x #17 Posted 09 July 2020 - 07:26 PM

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View PostPoppyluv77, on 09 July 2020 - 01:11 PM, said:

 

Lol. They give plenty of reasons which more than offset any reason to be positive about the state and direction of this game. On top of that, there were and are countless more complaints about Arty than the Chisel. Countless more complaints about mm than the Chisel. The only complaints I’ve seen appeased thus far is the one-shot HESH whiners. I don’t own either HESH by the way, only pointing out the inconsistencies running rampant right now. You, as the self-appointed forum apologist sheriff need to holster up, giddy up, and set everyone straight before WG actually finds out people are getting increasingly frustrated, angry, and displeased with the current state and direction of this game.

 

But hey, at least you write well and don’t call people names.

As others and myself have stated before, the difference in something like balancing the Chisel and 183s and reworking arty or fixing MM is that the latter topics take significantly more work and would likely be done in a full update. WG balancing different tier X tanks is already addressing many people's biggest complaint with the game, its balance (and balance at tier X in particular), and there's always a chance that they're working on improving MM or reworking arty for a future update while they do these balance changes. Just because there are bigger problems doesn't mean that addressing the smaller problems is a bad thing, especially when those small problems can be addressed while potentially working on the bigger problems, and you can praise someone for doing something right while still giving them ideas or criticisms on other aspects that should be improved or fixed (rather than complaining every time someone does anything that doesn't directly address what you want to be changed). 


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LacqueredBacon-x #18 Posted 09 July 2020 - 07:36 PM

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This is a lot of bellyaching over 20m of view range and 0.5 sec of reload.


 


Poppyluv77-p #19 Posted 09 July 2020 - 07:47 PM

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View PostLacqueredBacon, on 09 July 2020 - 07:36 PM, said:

This is a lot of bellyaching over 20m of view range and 0.5 sec of reload.

 

Every bit counts in this game



LacqueredBacon-x #20 Posted 09 July 2020 - 07:54 PM

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View PostPoppyluv77, on 09 July 2020 - 02:47 PM, said:

 

Every bit counts in this game

 

Of course but it is not limiting to the tank.  400m of view range is still perfectly fine at tier X.  And 0.5 sec of reload only matters in a very small number of situations.


 





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