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Let's Talk about Tanks - FV217 Badger Edition


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MaxChaos24-x #1 Posted 01 July 2020 - 02:37 PM

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POSTED ON BEHALF OF THE DESIGN TEAM

Hey everyone!

My name is Jeff Gregg, and I am the Lead Designer on World of Tanks SummerSlam.

Welcome to "Let's talk about tanks! FV217 Badger edition".

The goal is to highlight specific tanks, one at a time, and really dig down into what makes them tick, how they are being used, and how approaches may be taken to improve them if necessary.

As you read you will see a lot of charts and data. All of this data compares the tank to every other tank of its tier over a sixty-day period. All data is pulled from Random Battles only.

This article focused on the FV217 Badger. Let's get started.

 

Battles and Popularity

The FV217 Badger

A Tier X UK Tank Destroyer, the FV217 Badger takes down foes with its OQF 123 mm Mk. 1

This tank's usage at tier X is a little below average for a tier X TD at ~ 1,330 battles a day:

So how is this tank doing with these players? Is it dominating? Is it suffering? According to the data, it has a win percentage of ~ 52.4%. The results are inconsistent/variable however; sometimes it performs much better, other times worse:

Let's take a deeper look at the win rate. An average of win/loss doesn't tell us as much as some may think. As always, we should do is evaluate WHO is using this tank when it comes to skill.

Below we see a curve (representing the skill of ALL players) and a blue curve (representing the skill of the players using this tank). The higher the curve, the more players at that skill level are using the tank. We can see that most players are right in the middle / are usually successful at ~ 50% win/loss. The lower the skill and the higher the skill, the fewer the players.

Now we might ask: "there are players with a 100% win rate?!" or "there are players with 0% win rate?!" Those are likely players that played once in this tank and won or lost and then stopped. Super low occurrence outliers.

This tank has a slight bias towards skilled player use.

Let's look at the tank's win/loss compared to skill. In the below picture we see two lines, one that represents the entire population's win/loss and another that represents this tank's win/loss.

This tank has a slight but demonstrable benefit for all skill levels. The line above the grey line indicates this tank increases your win chance by ~ 1% to 2.5%:

Weapons

Let's keep looking and focus on the weapon (the OQF 123 mm Mk. 1)

Accuracy is competent. It is the 4th best tank for accuracy in the tier X TD category with an average of 75.3% shots hit:

Penetration is the worst of all tier X TDs. Almost exactly 50% of its shots pen:

Damage per shot that hit is low for TDs. It is 2nd to last:

Damage per shot that hits AND penetrates goes up a bit but is still 2nd to last for Tier X TDs:

Damage per battle: this tank is 3rd to last for Tier X TDs with an average damage output of ~ 2,290 per battle:

Survival, etc.

Let's keep looking at other stats.

How often does this tank survive a match? On average the tank survives ~34.1% of the time (which is really good / in the top 20% of the tier X TDs):

How long does the tank live for in a match? An average of 5min and 11s. This is in the top 20% of tier X TDs; this tank lives for quite a while:

How far does this tank move? Not that much. It is in the bottom third of the tier X TDs tanks re: distance traveled per match:

How much damage does it usually block? This tank is the #3 tier X TD tank for damage blocking. About 1,480 damage prevented/blocked per battle which is quite good:

Conclusions

Summary

So what's the summary?

We have analyzed numerical data on this tank.

The things that stand out the most are:

  1. This tank is winning about 52% of the time (slightly above that)
  2. This tank is slightly preferred by skilled players, but benefits all players that use it (again, slightly)
  3. The damage output of this tank is low for tier X TDs (both in terms of per shot and per battle)
  4. The survival and damage blocked for this tank is high for a TD at tier X

Action Items

Based on this we plan on doing the following:

  • We will trade survivability for DPM and measure results:
    • We will buff its reload by reducing the time between shots from 9.7 to 9.0
    • We will nerf its side armor from 152.4 to 120 (side of the turret structure)

The above changes will take place on JULY 28TH.

In order to measure the impact of these changes once they are committed, we need at least 5,000 battles in the tank(s) to have enough data. Once we have that amount of info, we will report back here on what the results were and (if necessary) what the next steps will be.

If you have feedback about this process or have further questions, reach out! Stay tuned here for results of the test and for what the next tank we focus on is.

See you on the battlefield!



Haukkis-x #2 Posted 27 July 2020 - 02:21 PM

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Hmm... 0.7 second buff for reload is not enough imo, it still has worse rate of fire than SuperConqueror... Badger should fire over 7 rounds per minute... 7.5 rounds per minute would be fine, even then it wouldn't be overpowered, just better in those rare scenarious when it can fully use it's dpm. There's a reason why Badger isn't played as much as other td's: it's slow and has underwhelming gun (poor alpha and penetration for a td). If it had highest dpm in the game maeby it would draw more people to towards it and make it more popular... or not. Who knows. Slow td's like Badger just aren't meta in this game. 

wake_the_move-p #3 Posted 27 July 2020 - 02:28 PM

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The Badger has no issue with DPM. The Badger is not reaching the front in time. Instead of upping the DPM for lowering the side armor you should maybe have buffed it‘s top speed to 24 kph.

Ghoest9-p #4 Posted 27 July 2020 - 05:05 PM

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When considering relatively tough tanks - slow tanks will have better survival rates than otherwise similar mobile tanks. 

 

If you give most players a mobile tanks - they will put themselves in jeopardy.



Poppyluv77-p #5 Posted 27 July 2020 - 05:14 PM

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View PostGhoest9-p, on 27 July 2020 - 05:05 PM, said:

When considering relatively tough tanks - slow tanks will have better survival rates than otherwise similar mobile tanks. 

 

If you give most players a mobile tanks - they will put themselves in jeopardy.

 

Sir, this logic is not fully captured in the charts and graphs, therefore your point is moot. It does not compute.

Haukkis-x #6 Posted 27 July 2020 - 06:31 PM

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View Postwake_the_move-p, on 27 July 2020 - 03:28 PM, said:

The Badger has no issue with DPM. The Badger is not reaching the front in time. Instead of upping the DPM for lowering the side armor you should maybe have buffed it‘s top speed to 24 kph.

Ehh... Badger has a top speed of 30km/h... so... do you want it to go slower was that just type? 



mr_rainmaker777-p #7 Posted 27 July 2020 - 07:06 PM

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well im gonna chime in here,the lower plate is trash roof is trash,most tier X prem rounds go right through the front if you square up to them,angle wiggle is the way to block rounds in it but nerfing the side armor well.... that takes angle to block damage out of the equation now,so the dpm buff wont really make much difference,it really dosent have that much armor against other tier Xs,all that blocked damage that it reads is from lower tier 8s and 9s,but since the nerf to the hesh round its main adversary,win rate will go up its not a great tank only 8 to 10 rounds to penetrate will get you a M badge....  

LacqueredBacon-x #8 Posted 27 July 2020 - 07:14 PM

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0.7 sec buff?  Overall, this is a nerf.  Most of the damage output issues stem from not having anything to fire at by the time you get to the battler (similar to the Maus).

 

The tank is too situational as is.  These changes will not affect that.



 


wake_the_move-p #9 Posted 27 July 2020 - 09:26 PM

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View PostHaukkis-x, on 27 July 2020 - 06:31 PM, said:

Ehh... Badger has a top speed of 30km/h... so... do you want it to go slower was that just type? 

 

Have not driven it yet. Does it even reach it‘s top speed quickly and reliably? Because there are a bunch of tanks out there with nice top speeds in their spreadsheets, but mostly going way slower than that. IS-7, Chieftain MK.6, just to give just a few examples.


However, in that case an increase to 35 kph (and the ability to reach that speed on flat surface instead of only downhill) might make a change.

 

 


Edited by wake_the_move-p, 27 July 2020 - 09:34 PM.


TocFanKe4-x #10 Posted 27 July 2020 - 10:00 PM

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Wow, this seems like a big nerf overall for a tank that's not really setting the world on fire. 

This is what is sounds like, when seals cry

Shamelessly stolen from Wotstars.com, a console stats site


Haukkis-x #11 Posted 27 July 2020 - 10:31 PM

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View Postwake_the_move-p, on 27 July 2020 - 10:26 PM, said:

 

Have not driven it yet. Does it even reach it‘s top speed quickly and reliably? Because there are a bunch of tanks out there with nice top speeds in their spreadsheets, but mostly going way slower than that. IS-7, Chieftain MK.6, just to give just a few examples.


However, in that case an increase to 35 kph (and the ability to reach that speed on flat surface instead of only downhill) might make a change.

 

 

 

It does reach it's top speed on most surfaces, mobility feels similar to E-100. Lack of mobility is problem but not as huge problem as in Tortoise etc. tanks in that line. What it needs is big buff to it's rate of fire, 0.7 seconds is just nor nearly enough, currently I feel Tortoise, while being lower tier vehicle, has a better gun. In fact, if Badger could use Tortoise's gun package I would probably use it. 

Edited by Haukkis-x, 27 July 2020 - 10:31 PM.


haydonut421-x #12 Posted 28 July 2020 - 12:48 AM

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I think it needs a more sizable buff. Idk how the badger has a good win rate, because it really is not very good. They should have left the armor alone and just buffed the gun. It should have at lest 3300 dpm, in order to make there a reason to pick it over the super conq. The fact that they thought the tank was too good because it survives a long time is silly. They compared it too all TDs, not just the T110E3, Obj 268 v4, Jgpz E100, and any other heavy TD's that I may have forgotten about. Of course it's going to block more and survive longer than the paper TDs at tier 10. That is the point of it. This is the most obvious example of why this method of balancing tanks is flawed.

Warthog II-x #13 Posted 28 July 2020 - 07:07 AM

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View PostTocFanKe4-x, on 27 July 2020 - 10:00 PM, said:

Wow, this seems like a big nerf overall for a tank that's not really setting the world on fire. 

 

Maybe, armor still ain't bad.

 

That said, I think it blocking damage is more of a product of better players using it and the 30 kph speed having it engage things at a distance on open maps and able to use the environment on city maps to block damage.

 

By the time it 1st sees an enemy tank, it can pump out over 4k damage in a minute without high rolling.


  

Some people claim Ensk should be tier restricted.   I don't believe their lies. 

Imagine if this forum had only players who actually win more than lose trying to tell others how to play. Would be the best forum ever. Instead, we have a bunch of bad advice from players who lose more often than not trying to tell their betters how to play their tanks.

 


AurorasEdge-p #14 Posted 28 July 2020 - 10:22 AM

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View PostWarthog II-x, on 28 July 2020 - 07:07 AM, said:

 

Maybe, armor still ain't bad.

 

That said, I think it blocking damage is more of a product of better players using it and the 30 kph speed having it engage things at a distance on open maps and able to use the environment on city maps to block damage.

 

By the time it 1st sees an enemy tank, it can pump out over 4k damage in a minute without high rolling.

 

Except the console version of the Badger doesn't have 4k damage per minute.Fully cranked it still will only reach the 3.6~3.7k range at most AFTER this buff. The frontal armour is decent when played well but it only has armour on the front as the sides and rear are trash and won't block anything outside of wide angles of impact.

 

The tank sucks. The life of a Badger is as simple as:

 

1) Miss the entire fight because it is so slow.

2) Actually arrive, your team is half dead so you get swarmed and your armour is worthless.

3) You actually arrive in a decent time. Get HE'd to death because they can't pen consistently if you're using your armour right. And you better believe that if an artillery finds you that they will tape their trigger down and just follow you until you're unspotted or dead. Enjoy your modules and crew beng damaged or killed.

 

It is a tank that is incredibly powerful in theory. But in practice it just doesn't compete very well. Poor penetration for a tier X TD, lacklustre rate of fire and alpha strike don't put people off making the push to get to your sides. Hull traverse is poor as is the terrain resistances. As it is, it isn't a threat that isn't better posed in the form of a heavy tank like the Super Conqueror.

And lets not mistake the fact that these things will often survive the battle, artificially inflating their survivability when it is just a product of poor mobility to get around the map and a team that didn't need their contributions to win the game.

 

Note that the PC version of this tank is equally bad to play for the same reasons above. Generally speaking, there's always something better at what this one does with fewer downsides and better upsides. If you want DPM and accuracy, use an Strv 103B. Armour or alpha strike? Use the T110E3. I could go on but you all get the point.


Edited by AurorasEdge-p, 28 July 2020 - 10:23 AM.


Warthog II-x #15 Posted 28 July 2020 - 10:57 AM

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View PostAurorasEdge-p, on 28 July 2020 - 10:22 AM, said:

 

Except the console version of the Badger doesn't have 4k damage per minute.Fully cranked it still will only reach the 3.6~3.7k range at most AFTER this buff. The frontal armour is decent when played well but it only has armour on the front as the sides and rear are trash and won't block anything outside of wide angles of impact.

 

 

 

 

It's loaded by the time it will see it's 1st enemy tank.   480 alpha for it's opening shot + DPM is over 4k.


  

Some people claim Ensk should be tier restricted.   I don't believe their lies. 

Imagine if this forum had only players who actually win more than lose trying to tell others how to play. Would be the best forum ever. Instead, we have a bunch of bad advice from players who lose more often than not trying to tell their betters how to play their tanks.

 


LargoGinganinja-x #16 Posted 28 July 2020 - 06:15 PM

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I dunno playing it again get it in the right position and you can bounce shots and the gun can wreck tanks if you track them. You get hesh which can be useful against soft targets and you can often bounce whole clips of a waffle truck. It is definitely a specialist tank but what it does it does better then any other tier 10 td. 2100 hp is better then some mediums and heavies in tier 10.

TsprinTs-x #17 Posted 29 July 2020 - 10:46 AM

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Why not just put it back to PC stage?

Slow tanks usually survive longer.

Jeff.  Do you actually play these tanks or just looking at data?

IMO badger needs a pure buff, not nerf armor and slight dpm buff.



TsprinTs-x #18 Posted 29 July 2020 - 08:03 PM

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View PostAurorasEdge-p, on 28 July 2020 - 05:22 AM, said:

 

Except the console version of the Badger doesn't have 4k damage per minute.Fully cranked it still will only reach the 3.6~3.7k range at most AFTER this buff. The frontal armour is decent when played well but it only has armour on the front as the sides and rear are trash and won't block anything outside of wide angles of impact.

 

The tank sucks. The life of a Badger is as simple as:

 

1) Miss the entire fight because it is so slow.

2) Actually arrive, your team is half dead so you get swarmed and your armour is worthless.

3) You actually arrive in a decent time. Get HE'd to death because they can't pen consistently if you're using your armour right. And you better believe that if an artillery finds you that they will tape their trigger down and just follow you until you're unspotted or dead. Enjoy your modules and crew beng damaged or killed.

 

It is a tank that is incredibly powerful in theory. But in practice it just doesn't compete very well. Poor penetration for a tier X TD, lacklustre rate of fire and alpha strike don't put people off making the push to get to your sides. Hull traverse is poor as is the terrain resistances. As it is, it isn't a threat that isn't better posed in the form of a heavy tank like the Super Conqueror.

And lets not mistake the fact that these things will often survive the battle, artificially inflating their survivability when it is just a product of poor mobility to get around the map and a team that didn't need their contributions to win the game.

 

Note that the PC version of this tank is equally bad to play for the same reasons above. Generally speaking, there's always something better at what this one does with fewer downsides and better upsides. If you want DPM and accuracy, use an Strv 103B. Armour or alpha strike? Use the T110E3. I could go on but you all get the point.

 

well said

mr_rainmaker777-p #19 Posted 29 July 2020 - 08:17 PM

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bwahahahahaha its a nerf,cant angle to bounce shots anymore,rounds go right through the side,:D:D

its getting wrecked :D cant wait to see what the spreadsheet says at the end of the month :popcorn:



TsprinTs-x #20 Posted 31 July 2020 - 11:26 AM

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If the pen is so low why not buff its 274 pen?

Chieftain is already doing 270 and a T10 TD doing 274 pen with low speed, no turret, low alpha? Or give it 8.5 sec reload, its original stat.

Should improve its pen and alpha to justify side armor nerf of 20%.






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