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WN8 And Spotting.

WN8 Spotting

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Ben The Orange-x #21 Posted 15 November 2020 - 06:15 PM

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View PostTempest fox3-x, on 15 November 2020 - 05:54 PM, said:

 

Like we said. Spotting isn't included in WN8 because at the time WN8 was created it couldn't be included. You get a small bonus for first detections during a match. 

 

Light tanks have incredibly low target damage for high WN8 relative to other tanks of their tier. So honestly it's a non issue. You should be doing damage anyway. If you're not doing damage you're depriving your team of a gun to contribute toward victory. 

 

I was shooting my gun, I got off six shots, but I use the derp on that. As I was playing the active scout on the mid ridge of the field though, my shots were mid range. And sitting up there with that dispersion, big no no. Had to constantly crest the ridge and fire on the move mostly with auto aim. Just got unlucky with hits.

 

View Postdzhey43-x, on 15 November 2020 - 06:01 PM, said:

 

or lets say average player does 100 damage in his light. Good player will do at least 1000 damage. That's why lights are wn8 makers. 

 

I average around 900 damage on that tank and I'm currently classed as "good" in it. Just had a bad game damage wise.



UrticateArc6122-x #22 Posted 15 November 2020 - 06:24 PM

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View PostIBROX 04-x, on 15 November 2020 - 05:31 PM, said:

I stopped checking Wn8 ageeees ago. Decided I was never going to be a good player. Play for fun and don't worry about Wn8. 

 

You are a good player, though. Unicum 30 day stats. Playing for fun seems to work!


Edited by UrticateArc6122-x, 15 November 2020 - 06:24 PM.

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dzhey43-x #23 Posted 15 November 2020 - 06:49 PM

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Wn8 is nothing. Winrate is how good you are.


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IBROX 04-x #24 Posted 15 November 2020 - 06:56 PM

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View PostUrticateArc6122-x, on 15 November 2020 - 06:24 PM, said:

 

You are a good player, though. Unicum 30 day stats. Playing for fun seems to work!

 

Probably because I ain't chasing a merc contract or trying to get an op completed. Just been trying to relax and have fun. Even been doing a wee bit grinding. 

View Postdzhey43-x, on 15 November 2020 - 06:49 PM, said:

Wn8 is nothing. Winrate is how good you are.

 

Everybody knows trees cut is tru stat. 


Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm

 

 

 


pingwrx-p #25 Posted 15 November 2020 - 07:10 PM

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View Postdzhey43-x, on 15 November 2020 - 10:49 AM, said:

Wn8 is nothing. Winrate is how good you are.

Not entirely true what if a garbage player just road the coat tails of super unis all the time in a platoon.  I have seen on a few occasions where players had pretty high wrs yet their weekly and monthly show they are pure garbage.


 


 


SirDerp-a-lot-p #26 Posted 15 November 2020 - 07:36 PM

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View PostRubbelito-x, on 15 November 2020 - 06:15 PM, said:

Sounds great. Can we expect it during the coming week then?

 

I would give it to you right now, but for some reason I can't load the page with the WN8 formula. If you can, and copy that here, I will provide the formula for WN9.

 

I don't know what you expect, and where you see the difficulties. I would simply copy the part about direct damage and replace it with radio damage/track damage. It's not more complicated that that.



SirDerp-a-lot-p #27 Posted 15 November 2020 - 07:38 PM

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View Postdzhey43-x, on 15 November 2020 - 06:53 PM, said:

wotstars changed wn8 to wn8c the German site tried to do. C is console. Creating  new formula is simple,  but people do not trust it.

 

Exactly. Each of us could have their own version of WN9, but how would hat be useful?

SirDerp-a-lot-p #28 Posted 15 November 2020 - 07:42 PM

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View Postpingwrx-p, on 15 November 2020 - 08:10 PM, said:

Not entirely true what if a garbage player just road the coat tails of super unis all the time in a platoon.

 

How many bad players can reliably count on good players to pull their weight? It might happen, but I doubt this situation will spoil the numbers very often.



Rubbelito-x #29 Posted 15 November 2020 - 08:01 PM

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View PostSirDerp-a-lot-p, on 15 November 2020 - 08:36 PM, said:

 

I would give it to you right now, but for some reason I can't load the page with the WN8 formula. If you can, and copy that here, I will provide the formula for WN9.

 

I don't know what you expect, and where you see the difficulties. I would simply copy the part about direct damage and replace it with radio damage/track damage. It's not more complicated that that.

 

Like I said, I'm really excited about that you think it's easy to make a good and balanced "wn9", because I'm not so sure it's that easy. Luckily though, I don't have to do it now.:rolleyes:

 

Here's your formula:

WN8 = 980*rDAMAGEc + 210*rDAMAGEc*rFRAGc + 155*rFRAGc*rSPOTc + 75*rDEFc*rFRAGc + 145*MIN(1.8,rWINc)

 

And here's the guy you should give the new formula to:

http://forum-console.worldoftanks.com/index.php?/topic/242451-yass-wotstars/page__st__380__pid__5068527#entry5068527

 

:)

 

edit:

I better add that I know that I do sound a bit sarcastic, but I would truly be really happy if you actually solved this. lol


Edited by Rubbelito-x, 15 November 2020 - 08:05 PM.


Tempest fox3-x #30 Posted 15 November 2020 - 08:18 PM

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View Postpingwrx-p, on 15 November 2020 - 07:10 PM, said:

Not entirely true what if a garbage player just road the coat tails of super unis all the time in a platoon.  I have seen on a few occasions where players had pretty high wrs yet their weekly and monthly show they are pure garbage.

 

Platooning wont boost your win rate much if you don't at least pull your own weight to begin with. Instead you'll be dragging their win rate down and they'll probably stop playing with you eventually. 

War is a Democracy and the enemy always gets a vote.

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Tempest fox3-x #31 Posted 15 November 2020 - 08:19 PM

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View Postdzhey43-x, on 15 November 2020 - 05:53 PM, said:

 

wotstars changed wn8 to wn8c the German site tried to do. C is console. Creating  new formula is simple,  but people do not trust it.

 

WN8C isn't actually a different forumla. It just uses console specific target damage values instead of generalised ones taken from PC target damage websites. 

War is a Democracy and the enemy always gets a vote.

3 MoE's: E-25, M41 Walker Bulldog, E-50, Snakebite, E-75, T32, Tiger 131, Skoda T25, Boilermaker, Sentinel AC4 Experimental, M41B Brazil- In order obtained

 

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Tempest fox3-x #32 Posted 15 November 2020 - 08:27 PM

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View PostRubbelito-x, on 15 November 2020 - 08:01 PM, said:

 

Like I said, I'm really excited about that you think it's easy to make a good and balanced "wn9", because I'm not so sure it's that easy. Luckily though, I don't have to do it now.:rolleyes:

 

Here's your formula:

WN8 = 980*rDAMAGEc + 210*rDAMAGEc*rFRAGc + 155*rFRAGc*rSPOTc + 75*rDEFc*rFRAGc + 145*MIN(1.8,rWINc)

 

And here's the guy you should give the new formula to:

http://forum-console.worldoftanks.com/index.php?/topic/242451-yass-wotstars/page__st__380__pid__5068527#entry5068527

 

:)

 

edit:

I better add that I know that I do sound a bit sarcastic, but I would truly be really happy if you actually solved this. lol

 

A new formula could be written easily, the issue is you would need to tabulate data and come up with target spotting values like we have for damage which would take time. And you would need to decide how much weight to give spotting damage. IMO it would be weighted far lower than actual damage. The main stumbling block is the lack of data for target spotting values anyway. For all the other values we have years worth of data from which to generate expected values for every vehicle based on community performance in the vehicle. We don't have that data for Assisted damage. 

 

P.S Apologies for the multipost, on mobile and can't multiquote and editing another quote into an existing post is annoying. 


War is a Democracy and the enemy always gets a vote.

3 MoE's: E-25, M41 Walker Bulldog, E-50, Snakebite, E-75, T32, Tiger 131, Skoda T25, Boilermaker, Sentinel AC4 Experimental, M41B Brazil- In order obtained

 

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Rubbelito-x #33 Posted 15 November 2020 - 08:34 PM

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View PostTempest fox3-x, on 15 November 2020 - 09:27 PM, said:

 

A new formula could be written easily, the issue is you would need to tabulate data and come up with target spotting values like we have for damage which would take time. And you would need to decide how much weight to give spotting damage. IMO it would be weighted far lower than actual damage. The main stumbling block is the lack of data for target spotting values anyway. For all the other values we have years worth of data from which to generate expected values for every vehicle based on community performance in the vehicle. We don't have that data for Assisted damage. 

 

P.S Apologies for the multipost, on mobile and can't multiquote and editing another quote into an existing post is annoying. 

 

Yeah, of course. I kind of saw that as a part of the "formula creation".

As you can see in the link above, we've already had convos with ssoberllama about it and it was from him I got the notion of that it wouldn't be that easy to do.



SirDerp-a-lot-p #34 Posted 15 November 2020 - 11:42 PM

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View PostRubbelito-x, on 15 November 2020 - 09:01 PM, said:

WN8 = 980*rDAMAGEc + 210*rDAMAGEc*rFRAGc + 155*rFRAGc*rSPOTc + 75*rDEFc*rFRAGc + 145*MIN(1.8,rWINc)

 

Just copy the first product, replace rDAMAGEc by rASSDMGc (which is (rRADIOc+rTRACKc)/2) and there you go.

 

Balance is not a problem. If it is ever accepted, it will be the new standard, and will by definiton be correct. That's one of the major flaws of WN8 and its brethren.



SirDerp-a-lot-p #35 Posted 15 November 2020 - 11:46 PM

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View PostRubbelito-x, on 15 November 2020 - 09:34 PM, said:

Yeah, of course. I kind of saw that as a part of the "formula creation".

 

I was talking about the formula.

 

I think the entire project cannot possibly meet its stated goal (provide a single numerical value to describe a WoT player in its entirety) and is indeed toxic. That means you have to find someone else to make up inaccurate parameters.



Tempest fox3-x #36 Posted 15 November 2020 - 11:49 PM

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View PostSirDerp-a-lot-p, on 15 November 2020 - 11:42 PM, said:

 

Just copy the first product, replace rDAMAGEc by rASSDMGc (which is (rRADIOc+rTRACKc)/2) and there you go.

 

Balance is not a problem. If it is ever accepted, it will be the new standard, and will by definiton be correct. That's one of the major flaws of WN8 and its brethren.

 

rDamagec = damage / target damage

 

and you're weighting it equally with damage. Which is just incorrect. 


War is a Democracy and the enemy always gets a vote.

3 MoE's: E-25, M41 Walker Bulldog, E-50, Snakebite, E-75, T32, Tiger 131, Skoda T25, Boilermaker, Sentinel AC4 Experimental, M41B Brazil- In order obtained

 

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SirDerp-a-lot-p #37 Posted 15 November 2020 - 11:54 PM

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View PostTempest fox3-x, on 16 November 2020 - 12:49 AM, said:

rDamagec = damage / target damage

 

and you're weighting it equally with damage. Which is just incorrect. 

 

Whatever, pick any numbers you like for the target damage and the weight. It doesn't matter one bit.

 

If it's accepted, it will by defintion be correct (for some people). On the other hand, there is no way to evaluate its precision, it's completely arbitrary.



Tempest fox3-x #38 Posted 16 November 2020 - 03:30 AM

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View PostSirDerp-a-lot-p, on 15 November 2020 - 11:54 PM, said:

 

Whatever, pick any numbers you like for the target damage and the weight. It doesn't matter one bit.

 

If it's accepted, it will by defintion be correct (for some people). On the other hand, there is no way to evaluate its precision, it's completely arbitrary.

 

You can't just pick any number. It's based on how the community is performing in the specific vehicle. So you need a large data sample for every vehicle. 


War is a Democracy and the enemy always gets a vote.

3 MoE's: E-25, M41 Walker Bulldog, E-50, Snakebite, E-75, T32, Tiger 131, Skoda T25, Boilermaker, Sentinel AC4 Experimental, M41B Brazil- In order obtained

 

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SirDerp-a-lot-p #39 Posted 16 November 2020 - 05:55 AM

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View PostTempest fox3-x, on 16 November 2020 - 04:30 AM, said:

You can't just pick any number. It's based on how the community is performing in the specific vehicle. So you need a large data sample for every vehicle. 

 

What would happen if you pick a "wrong" number?



Rubbelito-x #40 Posted 16 November 2020 - 06:03 AM

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View PostSirDerp-a-lot-p, on 16 November 2020 - 06:55 AM, said:

 

What would happen if you pick a "wrong" number?

 

You'll get skewed results, which would give easier and harder tanks to do well in (wn8 wise) and the end result would not give much information, which would make the whole thing irrelevant.

Kind of what we already got with wotinfo (since it's PC based), but likely even worse.

 

 







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