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The Sturmtiger line has issues.


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Tempest fox3 #1 Posted 13 October 2021 - 04:20 PM

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Was going to hold off on making a thread till I had played the entire line, so far I have played up to the tier 8 Sturmtiger (P). But i'm not sure I have the willpower to continue down this line. 

 

To sum up the tanks

 

Tier V: StuIG 33 B

This tank probably wasn't helped by most matches either being bottom tier or a tier 5 lobby where everyone was playing the same TD. I Only played a few games in this before free-exping onwards to join platoon mates at higher tiers. It was ok, gun arc sucked, shell velocity sucked, aim time sucked, gun depression sucked, armour sucked. It was decently stealthy. Generally, if you want a tier 5 derp TD, just play the Stug III with the 105, you'll have more fun. One thing that confused me about the machine is it has two different types of HE, both have standard ammo level pricing. One has higher shell velocity and higher alpha, both have the same pen and splash radius (This is true for both guns the vehicle has). So why would you ever use the 1st HE shell when the slot 3 HE shell is objectively better and has no downside? HEAT is premium ammo for both guns, I found the alpha to be kind of low for what the caliber is meant to be even if the HEAT has decent pen. The tank isn't especially bad, but its not especially good either. 

 

Rating: (relative to tier)

Mobility - 7/10

Armour - 4/10

Firepower - 5/10

Concealment - 9/10

Flexibility - 6/10

 

 

Tier VI: Brummbär 

The deficiencies mirror the tank before it, it has no armour to speak of, poor aim time and shell velocity. bad gun depression. poor arc of fire so you constantly have to turn your hull to aquire a new target. Strenghts were the same as before, good camo. This one actually has highish alpha for the tier (Though still lower than tanks like the KV-2). Overall a tolerable experience. I moved on quickly as platoon mate wanted to play tier 7. 

 

Rating: (relative to tier)

Mobility - 8/10

Armour - 4/10

Firepower - 8/10

Concealment - 9/10

Flexibility - 7/10

 

Tier VII: Sturmpanzer

Probably the most enjoyable tank of the line, Decently mobile, the casemate armour of the tank can get some decent bounces when top tier (It's not as strong as the tier 8 Jagdpanther II but it's not far off). The tank could use a little more pen, as 203 on a tank that can't really flank the enemy easily doesn't cut it when bottom tier and you don't get a premium round with higher pen to work with as your prem round is HE, maybe up the pen to ~230 to give it half a chance of performing when not top tier. Games were very feast/famine, either the gun would work well and you'd come out with 3k+ easy or you'd miss every shot and end with less than 1k. This is also the only tank in the line that has workable gun depression, gun depression only gets worse from here. 

 

Rating: (relative to tier)

Mobility - 6/10

Armour - 6/10

Firepower - 8/10

Concealment - 6/10

Flexibility - 7/10

 

Tier VIII: Sturmtiger (P) - The tank that broke me. 

While it probably doesn't help my perception of the tank that that in all my games played in it I have been top tier exactly three times and in two of those three top tier games I was 1 shot by arty, this tank is hot garbage. The armour doesn't bounce anything (I had a tiger pen my casemate every time with standard AP). The gun can't aim down, so you'll be lucky if you can even aim at the cupola of a tank directly infront of you, let alone aim for any other weakspot. Mobility is lacking (It's the least mobile of the line I've played so far). You can't brawl, you can't snipe. You can't out manuver anything. Everything out spots you. I don't get the purpose of the tank. If you get into a fight you can't win you die. For the most part all you can do is try to trade HP with an enemy because they'll never bounce off you and you can't dodge anything. You can't control the battle either so you just have to hope an enemy with less alpha is willing to trade 1 for 1 with your alpha. When you're bottom tier there are things the standard ammo isn't good enough to pen and you don't have a high pen premium round to swap to, nor can you ever hope to get their flank so you're screwed. 

 

Rating: (relative to tier)

Mobility - 4/10

Armour - 5/10

Firepower - 7/10

Concealment - 2/10

Flexibility - 2/10

 

The tier 9 looks similar to the tier 8, but with probably less effective armour for the tier and even less gun depression (On a taller tank). So nah, I think I'm good. I'll save my time and silver for something else. If I ever get around to playing the tier 9 and 10 I may update this thread, but at this point it is unlikely. 

 

General issues with the line

  • giving proper lead at a fast moving target that's over 200m away is basically impossible. The shell arcs up during flight due to the poor shell velocity so even if you lead them perfectly and they don't stop or alter course while your shell is in the air most of the time your shell will just fly over them because you were aiming at the ground behind them. Not that you want to be trying to hit fast moving or distant targets anyway because the shell velocity itself is so bad but sometimes you wont have the choice and the way the ranging works in the game just adds an extra layer of annoyance for guns like this. 
  • At tier 8 the playstyle changes completely from having decent camo to (supposedly) decent armour (Good joke). You'll need a different crew for tier 8-10 than tier 5-7 as the camo skills become worthless as your base concealment is basically non-existant. 
  • The gun depression is bad and only seems to get worse at higher tiers, especially from what I understand with the Bar, the Bar is a really tall tank with the gun placed high up in the casemate, but the tank has 0 degrees gun depression. Based on the issues with the lower tiers that are both smaller and have more gun depression, I can see this is going to be a significant issue. Forget aiming for LFP's of targets, you simply wont be able to aim down that far. 
  • Ammo selection
    • tier 5 & 6 get HE/HEAT/HE with the HEAT round being the premium shell. The second HE shell is objectively better than the first and only costs like 20 credits more. This is a rather odd choice in general. I would suggest changing these to HEAT/HEAT/HE with both a premium HEAT and a cheaper HEAT round. 
    • tier 7-9 get AP/PremHE/HE which is fine, but the tier 7 could use a little more pen to compensate for the lack of a premium round to deal with heavily armoured targets. Your only option becomes chip away at them with HE. 
    • Tier 10 goes to HEAT/PremHE/HE from what I understand, which seems fine. 

 

 

Give the art team a pat on the back though, these vehicles look great visually.
 
Edit: one thing I forgot to mention, the silver earnings. For whatever reason these tanks make bugger all credits. Even tho their ammo is cheap and high alpha you'll regularly lose credits or barely break even even with a premium account and decent damage/kills and that's without using the premium ammo. Use premium ammo and it's pretty much guaranteed silver loss for that game. 

War is a Democracy and the enemy always gets a vote.

3 MoE's: E-25, M41 Walker Bulldog, E-50, Snakebite, E-75, T32, Tiger 131, Skoda T25, Boilermaker, Sentinel AC4 Experimental, M41B Brazil, Obj.416, Cromwell Knight, M551 Sheridan (Cold war) - In order obtained

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natedaishmaster #2 Posted 13 October 2021 - 04:35 PM

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Let's be honest, this line looks like a prototype for WG trying an alternate arty idea as a balancing baseline given the ammo, look, and gun elevation/depression/traverse stats. It's a meme line that looks sub par at best so far, and that's ok as a starting point, we definitely don't need these kind of guns to come in overpowered. Their stats look like you could just double the reload and accuracy to make them a sub par arty. Most of the reasonable arty suggestions seem to revolve around making arty more consistent on bad maps so that arty can be nerfed and made less broken without losing overall performance. Having a pure artillery option for open maps that can flex into a derp TD on city maps is probably one of the better options we can hope for. I will admit that they look fantastic, the gun on the tier X is hilarious

Edited by natedaishmaster, 13 October 2021 - 04:36 PM.

3 MOE: Hellcat, Lycan, Sp1C, T20, M41 Bulldog, Motherland, STA 1, T95E2, Pershing, AMX 50 100, AMX 13 90, T54ltwt, T49, RU251, M46 Patton, Type 61, Leopard PTA, T54, E50, Batchat AP, Skoda T50, Centurion 7/1, Sharpshooter, T10, Conquerer, AMX 13 105, Sheridan, T-100LT, RHM PZW, M60, Chisel, M48 Patton, Leopard 1, E50M, Obj 140, Batchat 25t, TVP 50/51, AMX 50B, Valour, IS7, Super Conqueror, The Machine, Chieftain, FV215B, T110E4

 

MOE Calculation Explanation: http://forum-console...ark-difficulty/


Haukkis #3 Posted 13 October 2021 - 04:35 PM

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Great review!  +1

DwarfOnDrugs #4 Posted 13 October 2021 - 04:36 PM

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The tier X plays like a deathstar without a turret and rediculous splash damage

 


fistfighter01 #5 Posted 13 October 2021 - 04:36 PM

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Thanks, I guess I'll stop at T5 for now. 

PhonicKitty8825 #6 Posted 13 October 2021 - 04:37 PM

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You're surprised about the tier 8? It's a Ferdinand, each and every single one of those things sucks.

4th MoE/Gold Moe  3rd MoE: IS-7, IS-3, M.O.B.A.T., M24 Chaffee '53, T-44A, T-72AV, M113, M551 Sheridan, M46A1 Patton


Haukkis #7 Posted 13 October 2021 - 04:38 PM

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View PostPhonicKitty8825, on 13 October 2021 - 05:37 PM, said:

You're surprised about the tier 8? It's a Ferdinand, each and every single one of those things sucks.

 

I disagree, I loved Ferdinand, it was awesome! But I haven't played since 2017 so it might not be so great in todays meta.

XEboi #8 Posted 13 October 2021 - 04:39 PM

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I'm on the Brummbär had about 5 games hateful thing

So far there not fun to play like a worse much worse kv2

Tempest fox3 #9 Posted 13 October 2021 - 04:39 PM

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View PostPhonicKitty8825, on 13 October 2021 - 04:37 PM, said:

You're surprised about the tier 8? It's a Ferdinand, each and every single one of those things sucks.

 

My expectations were fairly low, while i've never owned the Ferdinand itself I have played the Tiger P and fought many a ferdinand. But apparently my low expectations were far too high. 

War is a Democracy and the enemy always gets a vote.

3 MoE's: E-25, M41 Walker Bulldog, E-50, Snakebite, E-75, T32, Tiger 131, Skoda T25, Boilermaker, Sentinel AC4 Experimental, M41B Brazil, Obj.416, Cromwell Knight, M551 Sheridan (Cold war) - In order obtained

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Tempest fox3 #10 Posted 13 October 2021 - 04:41 PM

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View Postnatedaishmaster, on 13 October 2021 - 04:35 PM, said:

Let's be honest, this line looks like a prototype for WG trying an alternate arty idea as a balancing baseline given the ammo, look, and gun elevation/depression/traverse stats. It's a meme line that looks sub par at best so far, and that's ok as a starting point, we definitely don't need these kind of guns to come in overpowered. Their stats look like you could just double the reload and accuracy to make them a sub par arty. Most of the reasonable arty suggestions seem to revolve around making arty more consistent on bad maps so that arty can be nerfed and made less broken without losing overall performance. Having a pure artillery option for open maps that can flex into a derp TD on city maps is probably one of the better options we can hope for. I will admit that they look fantastic, the gun on the tier X is hilarious

 

One of my platoon mates did make the suggestion that they should give them something akin to seige mode and allow them to change mode and have the top down view arty get.

War is a Democracy and the enemy always gets a vote.

3 MoE's: E-25, M41 Walker Bulldog, E-50, Snakebite, E-75, T32, Tiger 131, Skoda T25, Boilermaker, Sentinel AC4 Experimental, M41B Brazil, Obj.416, Cromwell Knight, M551 Sheridan (Cold war) - In order obtained

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natedaishmaster #11 Posted 13 October 2021 - 04:49 PM

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View PostTempest fox3, on 13 October 2021 - 08:41 AM, said:

 

One of my platoon mates did make the suggestion that they should give them something akin to seige mode and allow them to change mode and have the top down view arty get.

 

The whole line looks more like arty than TDs, mostly on the gun length. I think it's an idea that Kellen put forward, idk when he mentioned it to WG. It seems like a relatively simple implementation on WG's side. Their "siege mode" mechanic is already used on the CS63 to alter stats for turbo. WG just has to be able to change camera zoom with siege mode for it to work. I almost think this is a balance test for direct fire seeing as they don't have an open test server similar to how the Equalizer was a test for barrage. If they end up not changing anything, it's still a unique meme line that seems to be extremely popular

Edited by natedaishmaster, 13 October 2021 - 04:50 PM.

3 MOE: Hellcat, Lycan, Sp1C, T20, M41 Bulldog, Motherland, STA 1, T95E2, Pershing, AMX 50 100, AMX 13 90, T54ltwt, T49, RU251, M46 Patton, Type 61, Leopard PTA, T54, E50, Batchat AP, Skoda T50, Centurion 7/1, Sharpshooter, T10, Conquerer, AMX 13 105, Sheridan, T-100LT, RHM PZW, M60, Chisel, M48 Patton, Leopard 1, E50M, Obj 140, Batchat 25t, TVP 50/51, AMX 50B, Valour, IS7, Super Conqueror, The Machine, Chieftain, FV215B, T110E4

 

MOE Calculation Explanation: http://forum-console...ark-difficulty/


PhonicKitty8825 #12 Posted 13 October 2021 - 04:50 PM

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View PostHaukkis, on 13 October 2021 - 04:38 PM, said:

 

I disagree, I loved Ferdinand, it was awesome! But I haven't played since 2017 so it might not be so great in todays meta.

Anyone who has ever caught a glimpse of its armour model can pen it

It's super slow 

No gun depression (only thing I tolerated tho)

No camo

Gun is bad when compared to other tier 8 casemate TD's (ISU-152, AMX, WZ, ...)


4th MoE/Gold Moe  3rd MoE: IS-7, IS-3, M.O.B.A.T., M24 Chaffee '53, T-44A, T-72AV, M113, M551 Sheridan, M46A1 Patton


MaxMiner11 #13 Posted 13 October 2021 - 04:54 PM

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I am fine with only grinding up to tier 7.  
[X] I am not a BOT

Tempest fox3 #14 Posted 13 October 2021 - 05:10 PM

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View Postnatedaishmaster, on 13 October 2021 - 04:49 PM, said:

 

The whole line looks more like arty than TDs, mostly on the gun length. I think it's an idea that Kellen put forward, idk when he mentioned it to WG. It seems like a relatively simple implementation on WG's side. Their "siege mode" mechanic is already used on the CS63 to alter stats for turbo. WG just has to be able to change camera zoom with siege mode for it to work. I almost think this is a balance test for direct fire seeing as they don't have an open test server similar to how the Equalizer was a test for barrage. If they end up not changing anything, it's still a unique meme line that seems to be extremely popular

 

It's popular because it's new. Give it a month or two and I doubt many will still be playing it. 


War is a Democracy and the enemy always gets a vote.

3 MoE's: E-25, M41 Walker Bulldog, E-50, Snakebite, E-75, T32, Tiger 131, Skoda T25, Boilermaker, Sentinel AC4 Experimental, M41B Brazil, Obj.416, Cromwell Knight, M551 Sheridan (Cold war) - In order obtained

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Joco3000 #15 Posted 13 October 2021 - 05:24 PM

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Minor note on the Bar.

It doesn't get 2 degrees gun depression. It gets 2 degrees gun traverse either way. Gun depression is zero.


You can PM with with questions, if you wish. I don't bite.

Compilation thread of my ideas


jujubugs #16 Posted 13 October 2021 - 05:26 PM

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This is part of why I didn't want to spend any free xp on this line.The 33 B was horrible.And it doesn't even get better down the line.Maybe there will be a keeper but none of them will ever be apart of people's regular rotation.The interview the tank developers gave should tell you that this tank line is a long boring grind. 

natedaishmaster #17 Posted 13 October 2021 - 05:28 PM

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View PostTempest fox3, on 13 October 2021 - 09:10 AM, said:

 

It's popular because it's new. Give it a month or two and I doubt many will still be playing it. 

 

Idk, one-shot tanks have always had extreme popularity, regardless of actual performance. Look at how many people suffered through the AT line to get the 183 or how many people still play the 183 and arty even though they were never strong tanks to begin with

3 MOE: Hellcat, Lycan, Sp1C, T20, M41 Bulldog, Motherland, STA 1, T95E2, Pershing, AMX 50 100, AMX 13 90, T54ltwt, T49, RU251, M46 Patton, Type 61, Leopard PTA, T54, E50, Batchat AP, Skoda T50, Centurion 7/1, Sharpshooter, T10, Conquerer, AMX 13 105, Sheridan, T-100LT, RHM PZW, M60, Chisel, M48 Patton, Leopard 1, E50M, Obj 140, Batchat 25t, TVP 50/51, AMX 50B, Valour, IS7, Super Conqueror, The Machine, Chieftain, FV215B, T110E4

 

MOE Calculation Explanation: http://forum-console...ark-difficulty/


RabidSasquatch0 #18 Posted 13 October 2021 - 05:38 PM

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View PostTempest fox3, on 13 October 2021 - 11:20 AM, said:

  • giving proper lead at a fast moving target that's over 200m away is basically impossible. The shell arcs up during flight due to the poor shell velocity so even if you lead them perfectly and they don't stop or alter course while your shell is in the air most of the time your shell will just fly over them because you were aiming at the ground behind them. Not that you want to be trying to hit fast moving or distant targets anyway because the shell velocity itself is so bad but sometimes you wont have the choice and the way the ranging works in the game just adds an extra layer of annoyance for guns like this.

 

IMO a blunder of a game mechanic.

 

I would so much rather have to give elevation and lead than this nonsensical auto-zeroing rangefinder built in gun style.  It makes any tanks with slow shell velocities and high arcs basically impossible to use at range (which I suppose could be considered a balance point, you literally cannot hit hull down or unspotted or moving tanks at range with high arc guns because if you fire behind them the shell will just fly overtop) irrelevant of skill.

 

WG could slap a EDIT: Elevation Adjust (Notches for 100m, 200m, 300m, you know.  Still have a built-in electronic rangefinder) ACOG style to the sniper view (or IMO, just make people learn to zero just like they have to do when leading a shot) and make this 100 times better, but I'm guessing its a pretty baked in mechanic with your reticle actually only existing as a projection of your gun onto the first thing it contacts (be it a rock, another tank, the skybox, or whatever), rather than at the point of origin of the shell...


Edited by RabidSasquatch0, 13 October 2021 - 05:47 PM.


Tempest fox3 #19 Posted 13 October 2021 - 05:42 PM

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View PostJoco3000, on 13 October 2021 - 05:24 PM, said:

Minor note on the Bar.

It doesn't get 2 degrees gun depression. It gets 2 degrees gun traverse either way. Gun depression is zero.

 

Corrected it. 


War is a Democracy and the enemy always gets a vote.

3 MoE's: E-25, M41 Walker Bulldog, E-50, Snakebite, E-75, T32, Tiger 131, Skoda T25, Boilermaker, Sentinel AC4 Experimental, M41B Brazil, Obj.416, Cromwell Knight, M551 Sheridan (Cold war) - In order obtained

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Orbtastic1 #20 Posted 13 October 2021 - 07:21 PM

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They don't look to be outperforming from what I've seen so far. Yeah seen a couple in higher tier games pull some 4k games but they still lost. I keep seeing them getting outspotted or at least acting like they're perma spotted and not reacting to me when I'm spotted - Do they have poor view range?

 

The Tier 7 looks memey but there's no way I'm playing through the line, they look like a dreadful experience






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