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Whats the best(or just your favorite) SMG of WW2?


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DIE ChAoTiC519 #21 Posted 31 May 2014 - 03:54 AM

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greese gun

HighSpyker #22 Posted 31 May 2014 - 04:05 AM

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There were numerous problems with the BAR, the most pressing being capacity and accuracy.  The BAR was too accurate, giving too small a beaten area.  Lack of a quick- change barrel also didn't help.  German squads existed to support their machine gunner, so it‘s fallacious to attempt a direct comparison to the US RIFLE squad....

 

I have carried support weapons (usually 60mm mortar) over many a hard mile.  No way in hell I‘d want to lug a Thompson around.



Dennis420b #23 Posted 31 May 2014 - 03:41 PM

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View PostHighSpyker, on 30 May 2014 - 11:05 PM, said:

There were numerous problems with the BAR, the most pressing being capacity and accuracy.  The BAR was too accurate, giving too small a beaten area.  Lack of a quick- change barrel also didn't help.  German squads existed to support their machine gunner, so it‘s fallacious to attempt a direct comparison to the US RIFLE squad....

 

I have carried support weapons (usually 60mm mortar) over many a hard mile.  No way in hell I‘d want to lug a Thompson around.


HighSpyker is 100% right. The philosophy of the 2 army's was entirely different thus different requirements and 2 different weapons. Although the Germans did implement Light MGs, it was mostly because they inherited them from captured enemy stocks. The Germans rarely threw competent weapons out even if it did not fit their scheme (One of the truly remarkable things about the Germans during the war was keeping such a huge variety of weapons serviceable and supplied. They handled this logistical nightmare well). But Germans seen the MG unit as the primary and the infantry squads as the support to the MG. The Americans were the opposite. (it can be argued which was a better philosophy for the time).

The BAR was a gun that never had a defined role. To light for LMG work, too heavy to fill the still undefined "Assault rifle" role, it IMHO is simply there because it was ready and nothing else could be fielded that would do better. An attempt to give the Americans a true General purpose MG like the MG34/MG42 was the M1919A6 by simply giving the M1919 MG a awkward butt stock and a attached bipod but this was way to heavy. The BAR stays as long as it did because the Americans were not able to get to its troops a competent modern MG, not because it was a good design.


Edited by Dennis420b, 31 May 2014 - 03:43 PM.


HighSpyker #24 Posted 31 May 2014 - 04:00 PM

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Yep.  The BAR was designed for "walking fire" in WWI.  Oddly enough, with the advent of SAWs/ARs (truly lightweight light machine guns) like the M249, the concept has come almost full circle.

Dennis420b #25 Posted 31 May 2014 - 04:08 PM

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When I made my choice of Beretta Model 38 it was under the criteria of what I would want as a soldier. The next closest would be the Suomi M/31 from Finland. But these would not be my choices if I was an Armaments minister as the two guns required a lot of mill work and were built to a higher standard, with better performance, rather than economic construction.
The M3, Sten, and Mp38/40 are all fine guns but their ability's are limited do to their design having production/economy given as a premium. Range and accuracy on all three is limited.
The Grease gun has the novel feature of being able to change caliber from .45ACP to 9mm, but it has weak charging handles that break easily.
The Sten is a rushed weapon. The MK IV was a good gun but it was a latter war gun that had better sights and furniture, and a finish on the steel, that the early marks lacked. 
The MP38/40 is another middle of the road gun, it does nothing well, being best described as adequate. 

The Thompson is a great well made gun, but some of the civilian features were useless on the battlefield and were rightly dropped. The drum magazine was noise and not reliable. The compensator at best offered marginal improvement to performance but was mostly a waste. The weak fore grip offered no advantage to the straight grip, and most important of all, the .45ACP round is short ranged and inaccurate having under 1000FPS leaving the muzzle.
 

Dennis420b #26 Posted 31 May 2014 - 04:14 PM

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View PostHighSpyker, on 31 May 2014 - 11:00 AM, said:

Yep. The BAR was designed for "walking fire" in WWI. Oddly enough, with the advent of SAWs/ARs (truly lightweight light machine guns) like the M249, the concept has come almost full circle.


Well once you get an intermediate round then you can have that role filled appropriately.


Edited by Dennis420b, 31 May 2014 - 04:15 PM.


HighSpyker #27 Posted 31 May 2014 - 04:54 PM

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Given, but there is also the Mk 48: http://www.fnhusa.co...ies/mk-48-mod1/ ... In any case, my first choice for WWII subgun would be in either. 30 Carbine or 7.62x25mm.

Nocturnal814 #28 Posted 31 May 2014 - 05:06 PM

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The m1 carbine isn't an smg...

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HighSpyker #29 Posted 31 May 2014 - 05:14 PM

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The M*2* Carbine is, being pistol calibered and fully automatic.

HighSpyker #30 Posted 31 May 2014 - 05:17 PM

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(Assault rifles defined as being intermediate cartridge and selective fire, while the. 30 Carbine is in fact a handgun-level cartridge, not an intermediate one like 5.56x45mm, 7.62x39mm, and 5.45x45mm.)

HighSpyker #31 Posted 31 May 2014 - 05:20 PM

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http://www.nramuseum...lash-hider.aspx

HighSpyker #32 Posted 31 May 2014 - 05:27 PM

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oops...cartridge list should be "5.45x39mm", not "x45mm", sorry.   The first practical example of the type, the Federov Automat, fired 6.5x50mm, which is almost identical in performance to.7.62x39mm: http://world.guns.ru...-fedorov-e.html

MrWuvems #33 Posted 31 May 2014 - 05:45 PM

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Also, nobody's mentioned the MP41, an MP40 designed to double as a club.

Nocturnal814 #34 Posted 31 May 2014 - 06:28 PM

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View PostHighSpyker, on 31 May 2014 - 06:14 PM, said:

The M*2* Carbine is, being pistol calibered and fully automatic.

True, but that was Korean War era



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WidowMaker1711 #35 Posted 31 May 2014 - 06:33 PM

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View PostNocturnal814, on 31 May 2014 - 03:32 AM, said:

Agree on the garand. The bar was too heavy with too small a magazine to be a proper support weapon, id go with an mg42 for better suppression.  Close in I would go with the ppsh43, high cyclic with excellnt reliability

 

Id have gone Lee Enfield over the M1. Accuracy, RoF and the ability to reload half way thru a clip.


For Russ and the Allfather

 

 


WidowMaker1711 #36 Posted 31 May 2014 - 06:41 PM

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View PostHighSpyker, on 31 May 2014 - 05:00 PM, said:

Yep. The BAR was designed for "walking fire" in WWI. Oddly enough, with the advent of SAWs/ARs (truly lightweight light machine guns) like the M249, the concept has come almost full circle.

 

Id choose the BREN over the BAR. 


For Russ and the Allfather

 

 


HighSpyker #37 Posted 31 May 2014 - 07:28 PM

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No, Noc, the M2 was available before the end of WWII.  If you had read the NRA Museum link you would have seen it.  I'm a  historian: I give reputable sources to back up any disputed facts.

Nocturnal814 #38 Posted 31 May 2014 - 08:04 PM

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View PostHighSpyker, on 31 May 2014 - 08:28 PM, said:

No, Noc, the M2 was available before the end of WWII. If you had read the NRA Museum link you would have seen it. I'm a historian: I give reputable sources to back up any disputed facts.

http://www.nramuseum...lash-hider.aspx

This one? The one that said it was produced too late to see much action in wwii? We are talking mass produced, or I would have selected the stg44 for both the smg and the rifle.



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HighSpyker #39 Posted 31 May 2014 - 08:23 PM

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Okay, man.  Quibble if you want.

Dennis420b #40 Posted 31 May 2014 - 08:25 PM

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Well I would not say that the .30 carbine (7.62x33) was a pistol round (although a few were chambered for it) as it has its origins in the .32 SL, a round used in the Winchester Model 1905 rifle. I would not give it "Assault Rifle" status, but its closer to an assault rifle than an SMG. One of the features of nearly all SMGs is firing from an open bolt. A feature used on nearly every SMG since the MP 18. The bolt stays back and does not come forward to grab and chamber the round until the trigger has been pulled (the firing pin is usually "fixed"), and when the trigger is released the bolt rest in the back/open position again. Where the M1 carbine fires from a closed bolt like most self loading rifles.




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