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Operation SeaLion


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FRsLastStand #21 Posted 23 June 2014 - 12:55 PM

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Polish free forces were known as one of most feared military groups in the Second World War,Germans had a deep respect of polish units and often feared fighting them especially 303 squadron which was known to be the top scoring allied squadron of the Britsh Air Force.

rainsilent #22 Posted 25 June 2014 - 02:35 AM

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A few posts had major errors in them I would like to make straight. The Germans almost had complete air superiority when they started bombing the cities (which started by accident but that is another discussion.) Also the British had pretty much no equipment for their army for about a year after Dunkirk. Well within time for Germany to have taken most of England via invasion had they finished off the RAF during the Battle of Britain.

 

What about the "simulated landing" and what Dieppe showed? It is hard to stop an invading army with rocks and pitchforks as your most common weapons. As I stated the British army lost most of its equipment leaving Dunkirk. Outside of the RAF Britain was virtually defenseless against an invasion. With the RAF about 2 weeks from total collapse when London was first bombed the invasion would have come well before the army was reequipped. In the end England was saved from invasion and sure occupation by a simple mistake.


http://forum-console.worldoftanks.com/index.php?/topic/25926-package-fixes-and-suggestions/

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Tiberius67 #23 Posted 25 June 2014 - 04:44 AM

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The Sandhurst exercise postulated a September 1940 Invasion.....and even the German umpires (all field or flag grade officers during the War) agreed that it would have been a total disaster for the Invaders.  I'm inclined to take their word for it.

UK SPARTAN 1075 #24 Posted 25 June 2014 - 07:11 AM

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Germany wouldn't of won   you got to take into account how many troops and equipment they would of lost before they even got here then the resupply its goin to be difficult to resupply them the british army still had enough equipment and troops to fight and personaly if a officer in the British army says it was goin to disaster im goin to take his word the military tend to know more about this stuff than a civilian dont underestimate the british army we are and always have been a good military we stood against nazi Germany for a good many years without help 

rainsilent #25 Posted 25 June 2014 - 01:15 PM

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You two both realize that exercise was based around if they just attacked as the situation was not as what would have happened if the RAF were destroyed first. You guys really have to read or at least understand what is being said both from me here and all of the historical events including Sandhurst. If the Germans would have kept to and not gone to bombing the cities they would have had the ability to invade, invaded and would have successfully occupied England.

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Tiberius67 #26 Posted 25 June 2014 - 07:09 PM

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View Postrainsilent, on 25 June 2014 - 08:15 AM, said:

You two both realize that exercise was based around if they just attacked as the situation was not as what would have happened if the RAF were destroyed first. You guys really have to read or at least understand what is being said both from me here and all of the historical events including Sandhurst. If the Germans would have kept to and not gone to bombing the cities they would have had the ability to invade, invaded and would have successfully occupied England.

 

So in other words, you want to go on about "what if", rather than "what was". The Sandhurst exercise was an attempt to determine what would have happened given the conditions at the time and using the plans both sides had formulated. The finding was that it would have been a colossal failure for the Germans....everyone present agreed. If the Germans had managed to suppress the RAF, it would have increased their chances substantially.....but they weren't able to. Going off what would have happened if they had , like positing on what would have happened if Spartacus had acquired a airworthy Piper Cub during his campaigns against Rome, is fun to argue, but ultimately doesn't matter one whit as historically the RAF was not suppressed, and the RN got the Air support it needed to maintain dominance of the Channel to make sure the Germans didn't try.

 

Here's a what if...what if Britain hadn't given the RAF control over all military aviation so it could starve the RNAS of resources so they could afford more strategic bombers and land-based interceptors, and the FAA had entered WW2 with modern aircraft? That would have been a rude shock indeed for the Germans and Italians. When British carriers were assigned to the Pacific they had to be re-armed with US aircraft so thier aircrews (who certainly knew their trade) wouldn't be butchered in their obsolete aircraft by the Japanese in thier modern aircraft.    

 



rainsilent #27 Posted 25 June 2014 - 08:37 PM

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View PostTiberius67, on 25 June 2014 - 03:09 PM, said:

 

So in other words, you want to go on about "what if", rather than "what was". The Sandhurst exercise was an attempt to determine what would have happened given the conditions at the time and using the plans both sides had formulated. The finding was that it would have been a colossal failure for the Germans....everyone present agreed. If the Germans had managed to suppress the RAF, it would have increased their chances substantially.....but they weren't able to. Going off what would have happened if they had , like positing on what would have happened if Spartacus had acquired a airworthy Piper Cub during his campaigns against Rome, is fun to argue, but ultimately doesn't matter one whit as historically the RAF was not suppressed, and the RN got the Air support it needed to maintain dominance of the Channel to make sure the Germans didn't try.

 

Here's a what if...what if Britain hadn't given the RAF control over all military aviation so it could starve the RNAS of resources so they could afford more strategic bombers and land-based interceptors, and the FAA had entered WW2 with modern aircraft? That would have been a rude shock indeed for the Germans and Italians. When British carriers were assigned to the Pacific they had to be re-armed with US aircraft so thier aircrews (who certainly knew their trade) wouldn't be butchered in their obsolete aircraft by the Japanese in thier modern aircraft.    

 

 

Way to jump off of the deep end and take things way out of proportion. My "what if" was actually very close to reality. Yours are so far off that your making a joke of it. It would actually be fair to call your whole post stupid and you in turn. Again read the op and my earlier posts. It completely fits with the topic and is rooted on facts. If you are incapable of replying in an intelligent manner do the rest of us on the forums a favor and don't post again.


http://forum-console.worldoftanks.com/index.php?/topic/25926-package-fixes-and-suggestions/

My list of suggested package changes. Matthew J35u5 has one as well. I suggest you take a look at his too and make your own suggestions in either.


Tiberius67 #28 Posted 26 June 2014 - 04:19 AM

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View Postrainsilent, on 25 June 2014 - 03:37 PM, said:

 

Way to jump off of the deep end and take things way out of proportion. My "what if" was actually very close to reality. Yours are so far off that your making a joke of it. It would actually be fair to call your whole post stupid and you in turn. Again read the op and my earlier posts. It completely fits with the topic and is rooted on facts. If you are incapable of replying in an intelligent manner do the rest of us on the forums a favor and don't post again.

 

LoL...you're so completely full of yourself. You're exactly the sort of person the old SNL skit "What if Spartacus had a Piper Cub" was mocking...I'll be generous and assume you weren't old enough to have seen it. :child:



rainsilent #29 Posted 26 June 2014 - 04:51 AM

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View PostTiberius67, on 26 June 2014 - 12:19 AM, said:

 

LoL...you're so completely full of yourself. You're exactly the sort of person the old SNL skit "What if Spartacus had a Piper Cub" was mocking...I'll be generous and assume you weren't old enough to have seen it. :child:

 

No I'm not full of myself. Also I'm old enough to have seen it and have seen it. No I'm not one of the ones it was aimed at. Your just acting full blown stupid.


http://forum-console.worldoftanks.com/index.php?/topic/25926-package-fixes-and-suggestions/

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UK SPARTAN 1075 #30 Posted 26 June 2014 - 06:46 AM

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It doesn't relly matter dose it the germans didnt destory the raf yes they made a mistake by switching targets from air bases to  civilian targets but its a good job they did  it aloud the raf to regroup and get the rest they needed it still doesn't take away the fact the raf did a bloody good job AGAINST all the odds thown upon them NEVER IN THE FILED OF HUMAN CONFLICT WAS SO MUCH OWED TO SO FEW or words to that effect if the raf lost the war would took a different path d day wouldn't of happened thats for sure if we going to talk about op sea lion lets stick to what would of relly happened  not if  the fact is any army trying to invade a nation across water goin to have a hard time the germans would never succeed thay would of had to destroy the raf  frist which they didnt not what if they did they didnt then they would of had to destroy the navy then the army it wouldn't of happen most of there troop and supplys would of got bomd and sank they wouldn't of had the man power or equipment to fight end of story

Unkindled Wolf #31 Posted 26 June 2014 - 01:08 PM

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View Postrainsilent, on 26 June 2014 - 12:51 AM, said:

 

No I'm not full of myself. Also I'm old enough to have seen it and have seen it. No I'm not one of the ones it was aimed at. Your just acting full blown stupid.

Sorry dude... you are so full of   something.



Unkindled Wolf #32 Posted 26 June 2014 - 01:40 PM

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View PostUK SPARTAN 1075, on 26 June 2014 - 02:46 AM, said:

It doesn't relly matter dose it the germans didnt destory the raf yes they made a mistake by switching targets from air bases to  civilian targets but its a good job they did  it aloud the raf to regroup and get the rest they needed it still doesn't take away the fact the raf did a bloody good job AGAINST all the odds thown upon them NEVER IN THE FILED OF HUMAN CONFLICT WAS SO MUCH OWED TO SO FEW or words to that effect if the raf lost the war would took a different path d day wouldn't of happened thats for sure if we going to talk about op sea lion lets stick to what would of relly happened  not if  the fact is any army trying to invade a nation across water goin to have a hard time the germans would never succeed thay would of had to destroy the raf  frist which they didnt not what if they did they didnt then they would of had to destroy the navy then the army it wouldn't of happen most of there troop and supplys would of got bomd and sank they wouldn't of had the man power or equipment to fight end of story

from the atrocious spelling I can tell you wrote this in a highly emotional state.  you are, however 100% right sir.  Even if RAF ops had become very spotty on day 15, The British army, navy and civilian population would certainly have had the heart and fortitude to see the few German gains become a footnote in the history of an eventually successful defense of the Home Isles.  



Death pod 69 #33 Posted 26 June 2014 - 02:41 PM

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I read a lot of replies that the Germans wouldn't have got past the channel, RAF etc.  The initial question was what would happen IF they had invaded.  Under that scenario, we are drawing several assumptions, RAF is defeated and Royal Navy is effectively kept away from the invasion beaches.

 

Under the scenario, what would have happened IF they had invaded, using the above assumptions, it would just be a matter of time before UK is occupied.  Going from memory from some of my recent readings, I believe there were not many fully equipped Brit divisions after the evacuation from Dunkirk.  The home guard was practically unarmed.  Pitchforks vs panzers is not a good combination.

 

Again, posting based on the initial question what would've happened "if the Germans had been able to invade Britain", and using my above assumptions, the UK falls in a matter of 6-8 weeks.



SecretSquirrel0 #34 Posted 26 June 2014 - 02:59 PM

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From this scenario the German army would be fighting on 3 fronts. They could not hold on to 2 at the time out stretching their supply line. You would also have to take into account that the US and others would have come to Briton’s aid a lot quicker. I don’t think the German army could continue to supply the army in Briton and on the other 2 fronts successfully, if the German army was to succeed (and a big if) in taking Briton it would have to be in Blitzkrieg fashion (meaning 2-3 weeks).



 


 


 


 


Unkindled Wolf #35 Posted 26 June 2014 - 04:41 PM

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View PostDeath pod 69, on 26 June 2014 - 10:41 AM, said:

I read a lot of replies that the Germans wouldn't have got past the channel, RAF etc.  The initial question was what would happen IF they had invaded.  Under that scenario, we are drawing several assumptions, RAF is defeated and Royal Navy is effectively kept away from the invasion beaches.

 

Under the scenario, what would have happened IF they had invaded, using the above assumptions, it would just be a matter of time before UK is occupied.  Going from memory from some of my recent readings, I believe there were not many fully equipped Brit divisions after the evacuation from Dunkirk.  The home guard was practically unarmed.  Pitchforks vs panzers is not a good combination.

 

Again, posting based on the initial question what would've happened "if the Germans had been able to invade Britain", and using my above assumptions, the UK falls in a matter of 6-8 weeks.

While I do respect and agree with many of your established points, I beg to differ that WE are drawing any assumptions (you know what happens when we assume).  

Given that Sea Lion was a plan for invasion and imagining that such an undertaking reached the point of jackboots on English sand beyond the Channel Isles, I will not assume that the every last Mosquito or Spitfire was completely destroyed and most certainly disagree that the Royal Navy could Ever be effectively kept away from any darn place they feel it necessary to be.  Zigzagging destroyers, escorts and smaller craft would most certainly wreak havoc on maritime supply lines to the point of near-suicidal actions in the face of a limited surface Kreigsmarine and a Luftwaffe that just ain't growing by the leaps & bounds necessary for a drawn-out engagement.  Landings would certainly be hampered by a grievous lack of purpose-built amphibious assault craft and if you think the port cities are going to hoist over gangplanks, you are sadly mistaken.  If a strong beachhead were secured, I truly don't believe panzers would have an easy time rolling through the many planned-and-practiced barricades, deliberately altered signs, valiant efforts of an under-equipped army acquainted with guerrilla warfare on it's home turf, and those magical tanks that just rolled off imaginary LSTs are going to need petrol.  The Brits would not have given any of that away so fuel and ammo ships would be blasted merrily away by a lone Beaufighter or MTB.  Just for laughs, lets assume the Krauts take England...next stop Scotland.  Herr Leutnant, I request a transfer!   Six to eight weeks?   to quote Gen. McAuliffe :   "Nuts."



UK SPARTAN 1075 #36 Posted 26 June 2014 - 04:46 PM

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View PostDeath pod 69, on 26 June 2014 - 03:41 PM, said:

I read a lot of replies that the Germans wouldn't have got past the channel, RAF etc.  The initial question was what would happen IF they had invaded.  Under that scenario, we are drawing several assumptions, RAF is defeated and Royal Navy is effectively kept away from the invasion beaches.

 

Under the scenario, what would have happened IF they had invaded, using the above assumptions, it would just be a matter of time before UK is occupied.  Going from memory from some of my recent readings, I believe there were not many fully equipped Brit divisions after the evacuation from Dunkirk.  The home guard was practically unarmed.  Pitchforks vs panzers is not a good combination.

 

Again, posting based on the initial question what would've happened "if the Germans had been able to invade Britain", and using my above assumptions, the UK falls in a matter of 6-8 weeks.

You are wrong you underestimate the british army 



Major Fulcrum #37 Posted 26 June 2014 - 05:04 PM

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View PostUK SPARTAN 1075, on 26 June 2014 - 05:46 PM, said:

You are wrong you underestimate the british army

We were severely under equipped, but the UK was very  motivated to fight.

 



Unkindled Wolf #38 Posted 26 June 2014 - 05:04 PM

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View PostUK SPARTAN 1075, on 26 June 2014 - 12:46 PM, said:

You are wrong you underestimate the british army 

Amen brother...Sea Lion was a paper tiger.  I don't need to defend the British.  You guys do a pretty good job of it yourselves



UK SPARTAN 1075 #39 Posted 26 June 2014 - 05:13 PM

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View PostMR M4G0083R 35, on 26 June 2014 - 06:04 PM, said:

Amen brother...Sea Lion was a paper tiger.  I don't need to defend the British.  You guys do a pretty good job of it yourselves

Lol yes we do



Tiberius67 #40 Posted 26 June 2014 - 05:36 PM

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View PostDeath pod 69, on 26 June 2014 - 09:41 AM, said:

I read a lot of replies that the Germans wouldn't have got past the channel, RAF etc.  The initial question was what would happen IF they had invaded.  Under that scenario, we are drawing several assumptions, RAF is defeated and Royal Navy is effectively kept away from the invasion beaches.

 

Under the scenario, what would have happened IF they had invaded, using the above assumptions, it would just be a matter of time before UK is occupied.  Going from memory from some of my recent readings, I believe there were not many fully equipped Brit divisions after the evacuation from Dunkirk.  The home guard was practically unarmed.  Pitchforks vs panzers is not a good combination.

 

Again, posting based on the initial question what would've happened "if the Germans had been able to invade Britain", and using my above assumptions, the UK falls in a matter of 6-8 weeks.

 

They had a difficult enough time invading Norway....the far larger and more populated British Isles was a far harder target, even if closer to the staging area in Occupied France. If they had been able to do it in June or July 1940, right after Dunkirk, then it might have worked...but by September (the timeframe the Sandhurst game used) what window there may have been would have been long closed. They weren't able to get air supremacy, the British held a insurmountable edge in naval power, and the Germans lacked the specialized ships and expertise for such an ambitious undertaking. 

 

 






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