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Open letter to WGA - 1.3 Summary Opinion Pertaining to German Line

team PC team 360 1.3 German nerf buff release balance

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PANZERsaurusREX #1 Posted 09 July 2014 - 06:32 PM

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Dear WGA,

 

This post is an amalgam of comments, presented as a summary interpretation of the German “rebalance” within update 1.3 based upon other posts I have made upon this subject. This is conclusive, so I don't need to post anymore on this subject after this as it is cathartic. 

 

As you may know, I am extremely disappointed and shocked at the level of unbalance within this feature release. It appears that you took the 8.8 PC release and followed it to the T for tanks such as the VK 36, but for all other tanks, you adopted the nerfs and omitted nearly all of the buffs. Perhaps this is the part 1 of a greater plan using the 8.8 as a template and you ran out of time? We don’t know because you do not communicate these things to us. All we have to go on are the incomplete release notes you delivered yesterday with no mention by your staff of a greater roadmap. 

 

·         Clarity

I want to be perfectly clear as to the purpose of this post. I understand the concept of refactoring. Tanks need to be changed for the sake of balance. The purpose of this post is to point out the half-assed implementation of these changes as they apply to the German line. There are two distinct categories of people within this community. Ones who say the PC is the working template for things to come (Team PC), and those who say the 360 has Carte Blanche freedom to choose their own path (Team 360). When Team 360 calls fowl, Team PC reads the stats from the 8.8+ release and starts throwing out Terms and Conditions in their defense. When Team PC cries foul, Team 360 claims that WGA has full license to do what they want. This is a recursive situation, only WGA knows their roadmap. We are all speculating the intentions and future of this game. All I am doing is pointing out the facts as given to us by the developers as they pertain to the German line in release 1.3.

 

·         Missed Opportunity

1.3 was an opportunity for you to take your own path, Team 360 or converge on the Team PC path. It appears you did both, but only with the downgrades effecting the German line. I offer you an analogy to chess and checkers. Chess contains unique pieces that all have unique performance qualities. That is one of the reasons it is a great game, diversity. No rational person would consider homogenizing functions on the Queen, rook or bishop like restricting their movement to one space. Tanks is filled with unique pieces. Yesterday you normalized the VK 36 and turned it towards the Jumbo side of town. You followed the 8.8 path towards mediocrity. But, when all pieces have been homogenized, you are left with checkers. Your journey towards the PC is not yet complete though, you forgot all of the balancing factors as they pertain to the German tanks. These include, but are not limited to: ROF increases, traverse increases, view range increases and gun depression improvements. If you are converging on the Team PC path, you missed a huge piece of the 8.8 update. If you are diverging towards the Team 360 path, the opportunity not to destroy the VK 36 was lost.

 

·         British Equivelent

Of course, most of the negative backlash came from the German tanker community starting yesterday. We would expect it when our entire garage was downgraded with a single update. But I would expect no different behavior if WGA happened to say nerf  the front armor of the entire AT series with no balancing buffs to counter the nerfs. Would the Brit Tankers be upset? Of course they would. For the sake of a great game I would support the in their cause because balance would be lost. Categorically nerfing an entire line is not fair play, nor is it good mojo. If you don’t understand the disappointment and shock we German tankers have, imagine your entire garage nerfed. 

 

·         Critical of the Release Notes

As stated before, the release notes are not the equivalent of the 8.8 release except where the nerfs are concerned. There are a handful of buffs, but in comparison, we are talking 95% nerf and 5% buff. In other places, the notes are just plain wrong, take the very first line of the German notes, Ammunition:

·         Pzgr. 41 StK armor damage increase by 30

·         Pzgr. 41 HK armor damage increased by 30

Right off the bat, this is wrong. Both of these shells are associated with the VK Konish gun, the correct term is "decrease", not "increase". The previous alpha was 165 and now it is 135. So telling us this is an increase is a major oversight.

 

·         VK 36.01 (H)

You guys destroyed this tank. Slower, less damage (see Konish notes above). Increased hit points are lipstick on this pig. Missing ROF increase and gun depression increase parallel to 8.8. Basically all nerf and no buff. You missed the opportunity to balance out the nerf they did in 8.8 but followed it to a T. But since we are using 8.8 as a template for the VK in 1.3...

 

·         Pz.Kpfw. VI Tiger and Beyond

There is a pattern here, but i will address the concerns most of us hard-core German tankers are experiencing. You guys nerfed all of the engines and tried to make up for it in weight reductions, some have increases. This tank is slower, therefore it has been nerfed. The armor decreases are an insult to an already poor-performing tier VII. Before the Great German Nerf, this tank was inferior in almost every way to the T-29. Making it slower and taking away side armor is ridiculous when you forgot to buff it with some balancing factor. No ROF increase, no gun depression improvements, no aim time improvements, small trade-offs in front and back turret armor. But lets not kid ourselves, this wasn't an OP tier VII to begin with.

 

The summary you gave us in the notes is basically one huge engine nerf to the entire German line. For the sake of balance, the 8.8 update included some buffs to the aforementioned specs. 1.3 contains almost none of these buffs and that is why people who run German tanks exclusively are pissed off. Categorically, almost every tank in my garage has been negatively effected with poorer performing engines. I don't know what the expectations were when you put these changes together? You guys followed the nerf of the VK 36 all the way and then only took the negatives from the 8.8 template and applied them to all the rest of the line. You categorically degraded an entire nation of tanks in the name of "balance", congratulations? This was neither Team PC or Team 360, this was Team Anti-German Tank.

 

·         What next?

I currently have 4,555 battles on WoT 360. That comes to roughly 25 battles on average per day. I would may be called a hard core WoT fan, perhaps even an addict. On top of that, I am the 1% Wallet Warrior. Guys like me pay the “free” bill for those who are unable or unwilling to shell out money toward this game. I have purchased all of the German Premium tanks to date less the Lowe. I have given financial support to friends of mine who wanted to dig into this game but were unable to do so at that time. Why? Because I believed this game, so far has been fun, fair and balanced. My time with WoT has been well spent, even if they turned my V/IV into a Pz. III, I would consider the money I spent to date as a very well worth it. I don’t want any sort of refunds nor do I think I am entitled to any. I do want my lost premium ammo to be compensated if I choose to continue to play, but that is a lesser concern of mine. My concern is balance moving forward. I am not going to play with handicapped tanks until the this balance is complete.

 

I am pausing now at 4,555 battles until I am satisfied that WGA has a viable plan to bring balance back to the tanks in my garage. If there is a plan to finish the parallel implementation to the 8.8 release, that is great, I want to know that this is the intention of WGA, to follow Team PC.  To tell you quite honestly, it would make everything much easier. We would know exactly what is coming. The limbo some of us are in right now, is that we don’t know. We speculate that they will finish the refactor of the German tanks, but no statement to that effect has been officially made by any WGA official. Team PC says yes, Team 360 says no. What is the truth?

 

·         Decisions

But one thing is certain, I won’t play until this is sorted out. I want my confidence in WGA restored. As of right now, my financial support for this game and company has halted. Until yesterday, I was ready to purchase the Panther/M10 and was going to convert available XP to the tune of $125 to jump right to the Waffentrager upon its release. But what is the point? Why pay money for these tanks if WGA can destroy their best qualities on a whim and without notice? If WGA is going to follow Team PC, that is totally cool, DO IT! Follow Team PC, give us the balance that 8.8 had in their equivalent release, not this half-implemented, glass half empty garbage you dumped on us German tankers yesterday. If 1.3 is WGA’s divergent path towards Team 360, and there is no plan to balance out the German line, I respectfully choose to walk away.

 

·         Conclusion

My vitriol has been expressed. I fell all of my opinions on this subject have been documented. I am cool with whatever comes next. Catharsis. Just fill this void with lovely, delicious bacon, at the very least, a picture of bacon will suffice.

 

 

 

[edit/addition]

 

·         10 July 2014 Update: Everyone Agrees, 1.3 did not BUFF the German Line

Since the update, there has been not one (1) serious, quantitative forum post that update 1.3. was a buff to the German Line. It is the overwhelming consensus on the forums and within the data given by WGA that this was a sum total NERF to the German Line.

 

The real argument is to what degree did this nerf effect the German Line?

 

Two opposing camps have emerged, one extreme side says, “You ruined all the German tanks.” The other extreme side says, “The nerfs were so negligible, the German tanks were virtually unaffected.”  The real truth is probably somewhere in between.

 

Make no mistake though, not a single valid post is claiming that the German line wasn’t nerfed.  The argument now is to what degree. Now that the quantitative analysis shows that the Germans have been nerfed, people are putting in place tank-by-tank descriptions of their qualitative experiences with each of these tanks.

 

As of right now, I still hold the position that WGA should round out these nerfs with the expected buffs that were put in place in equity to the 8.8 update for the PC. This would solve both sides of the argument:

 

1. People who believe that the German tanks were ruined would have consolation that the equity buffs from 8.8 are in place to balance out the nerfs.

 

2. People who claim that the nerfs were negligible will probably agree that the buffs are as well.

 

Simplest solution to shut everyone up is to follow through with the 8.8 transition and add the missing buffs.

 

·         11 July 2014 Update: Financial Embargo Still in Effect

WGA has chosen not to address this issue, despite this thread being on top of the forums for three days. There are still many unanswered questions and many people have put fourth very compelling arguments. But as originally stated, my faith in this company has waned. I will not be spending any money on tanks such as the Panther/M10, nor on converting experience for quick advancement to the Waffentrager, until WGA puts fourth the time and energy to analyze and respond in kind to the collective concerns put fourth in this thread.

 

·         11 July 2014 (Late Night) Update: Good News

Nyx WGA has responded and will be addressing this topic when he meets with the development team Monday. He will be digging into the details and has offered dig into the "why" these changes were made. This should shed light on the subject and hopefully put an end to this post.

 

·         17 July 2014: There is a very bright side. 

 

Without saying so, it appears that you (WGA) acknowledges that we are not crazy and that our voice on this thread had merit. The degree of merit perhaps is debatable, it has obviously been debated here for a week.  Regardless, you are looking into a solution. For that I am thankful you hear our voice on this subject. We live in an unfortunate world where the loudest complaints get the most attention. I hope that the presentation of our opinion was more useful than hurtful. Thank you for listening. 

 

The two solutions you are debating internally are both acceptable to me. I can see how this may be difficult to decide upon, a revert to 1.2 may be simpler and faster to implement now, but what is the long play? I think from a user, a merge towards parity with the PC would be easier to understand. Wikis would match up, future implementations would not come as a surprise, etc. But you guys at WGA may lose something, something very important, and that is the freedom to make decisions on the metrics that you believe in. What if in the future you don't agree with the nerf of the 183? What then? If you take the path to the PC you will be bounded by their decisions. If you take your own path, you may be forced with similar passionate postings like this one. Your situation is a really difficult one and I really feel bad about contributing towards it. But in the long run, I believe the game will be better for it.

 

On any respect, I am very satisfied that this is being handled.  My perceived balance will be achieved with either of your decisions. I am lifting my personal financial embargo and will be purchasing the Dicker Max and Animal Package this evening. 

 

I appreciate you taking this post seriously. Good luck with your split decision, either way it seems fair to me.

 

Good luck again and Thank You.


Edited by PANZERsaurusREX, 17 July 2014 - 10:42 PM.


AnyOLName #2 Posted 09 July 2014 - 06:32 PM

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View PostWGWPAIN, on 18 July 2014 - 08:50 AM, said:

I just wanted to clear up something.  When I said "complicated" I meant time consuming.  We have both changes in different builds here and are testing them.  The revert is easy but moving up and taking all the buffs\nerfs to the German line is a ton of changes that need to all be verified.  

 

There's no attempt at deceit.  I'm currently not strongly leaning either way.  It's test, test, test, then decided.  Your feedback posted here is also valuable.  Thank you all.

 

"Strengthen what is weak, and let the strong alone." <-- Hmm, I could have used that last week, thanks ;)

 


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wildest raptor1 #3 Posted 09 July 2014 - 06:34 PM

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There are a lot of good things you put in. Good Job.

 



MEEYO-8 #4 Posted 09 July 2014 - 06:44 PM

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Well written - thanks for the effort. And I agree and am in a similar boat. I am waiting for WG to do something here that makes some peace.

 

Aside: what's with people who complain about reading? Eh! Ouch!

 

Wall of text? Look at his careful organization and parsing into paragraphs and topics!

 

Too long to read? How long does it really take to read this? Took me 2-3 minutes.

 

EDIT: And, this is a substantive post that states a position clearly, offers good support for that position and does so in a careful and precise way. I'd like more posts like this. It would greatly enhance the value of coming to the forums.


Edited by l Meeyo l, 09 July 2014 - 07:08 PM.


wildest raptor1 #5 Posted 09 July 2014 - 06:46 PM

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View Postl Meeyo l, on 09 July 2014 - 07:44 PM, said:

Well written - thanks for the effort. And I agree and am in a similar boat. I am waiting for WG to do something here that makes some peace.

 

Aside: what's with people who complain about reading? Eh! Ouch!

 

Wall of text? Look at his careful organization and parsing into paragraphs and topics!

 

Too long to read? How long does it really take to read this? Took me 2-3 minutes.

I Agree with you.

 

 

 

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PANZERsaurusREX #6 Posted 09 July 2014 - 06:47 PM

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View PostAnyOLName, on 09 July 2014 - 06:32 PM, said:

Wall o text....ouch

 

 

So let me ask you this. If the PC didn't get any buffs, what would you be complaining about?

 

Also, it wasn't just the German line...

 

:popcorn:

 

Well, that is an interesting the question isn't it!

 

As I stated, there are two factions here on the forums: Team PC and Team 360. Team PC says that everything is converging on the 8.8 path. Team 360 says WGA has free will to do what they want. I would prefer WGA just goes straight Team PC. The path would be clear. Right now, the path they took was Team Anti-German Tank.

 

So to answer your question, which is purely hypothetical, if the PC didn't have any of the buffs and WGA followed that to a T, I would have expected the exact same results in 1.3. The problem is, what we received was not what was expected by people supporting Team PC.



AnyOLName #7 Posted 09 July 2014 - 06:47 PM

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View Postl Meeyo l, on 09 July 2014 - 02:44 PM, said:

Well written - thanks for the effort. And I agree and am in a similar boat. I am waiting for WG to do something here that makes some peace.

 

Aside: what's with people who complain about reading? Eh! Ouch!

 

Wall of text? Look at his careful organization and parsing into paragraphs and topics!

 

Too long to read? How long does it really take to read this? Took me 2-3 minutes.


Yes, It's a wall o text. Look how big it is.

Yes, I read it all... It's a little biased....

 

Still waiting on a response.

 


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redshadowrider #8 Posted 09 July 2014 - 06:54 PM

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I read the entire post and maybe it is biased, but hard to argue that it isn't factual.  I didn't really get hit with the nerf's much because I am still grinding toward the upper tiers, but did buy the VK 30.01 to get the free M and garage slot.  I am at a point where I can grind the German line, or the Russian line and am still deciding.  I will add one thing that was said in the OP's wall of text is pretty much my feelings.  How can I look at an offer of a Premium Tank and make an informed decision on whether to spend my money or not, with the possibility it won't be the same tank in the future?  Maybe the FREE route is the best after all.
I'm just saying.....

Matthew J35U5 #9 Posted 09 July 2014 - 06:57 PM

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@OP, didn't the Tiger and Tiger II not have their engines removed?

KeystoneCops, on 14 June 2015 - 12:51 PM, said:


ZambieSlayer28 #10 Posted 09 July 2014 - 06:57 PM

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Well...The german nerf has came :sad:. and i just started the line to.

Edited by ZambieSlayer28, 09 July 2014 - 06:58 PM.

 


poky314 #11 Posted 09 July 2014 - 06:59 PM

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How would you feel if WG offered a premium tank that was so OP that nothing could compete with it for only $200?  Would you buy one or would you want WG to nerf it?

 

Now that's an extreme example.  I'm just saying that I can see times where they will offer a premium that does turn out to be a bit OP, and then they'll either have to nerf it (I'm against nerfing tanks you buy), bump it up in tier level until it balances with the other tanks, or make you park it.



AnyOLName #12 Posted 09 July 2014 - 06:59 PM

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View PostPANZERsaurusREX, on 09 July 2014 - 02:47 PM, said:

 

Well, that is an interesting the question isn't it!

 

As I stated, there are two factions here on the forums: Team PC and Team 360. Team PC says that everything is converging on the 8.8 path. Team 360 says WGA has free will to do what they want. I would prefer WGA just goes straight Team PC. The path would be clear. Right now, the path they took was Team Anti-German Tank.

 

So to answer your question, which is purely hypothetical, if the PC didn't have any of the buffs and WGA followed that to a T, I would have expected the exact same results in 1.3. The problem is, what we received was not what was expected by people supporting Team PC.

 

Very well.

 

I tend to look at this game as an adaptation. While the core is similar to the PC, I do not believe that it's an exact copy. I find it difficult to believe that they would make the game in a manner that copied the PC version from it's beginnings step by step. Instead; I would imagine that they would have fixed apparent mistakes that were made in the PC version, and incorporate what they learned along the way. From there they would customize it for the different play style that come from console players. That's what it boils down to, that it has elements of both. It's an assumption that you are lacking these buffs, while they may already be incorporated into the game. We all know that there is a serious lack of information when it comes to the 360 version. Most assume that everything is like it is for the PC(Based upon the builds).

 

Then you have need to account for the difference in playstyles between the PC version and console. While a buff may have been necessary for the PC, they may have determined that it wasn't needed here...for whatever reason. Just because the PC got it, doesn't mean the console needs it. That is true for any game that gets imported from the PC to the console. Just look at the difference between BF4, Diablo, Defiance and other games. While the core is the same, they play totally different.

 

But you didn't answer the question. What are the issues you are having? Ignore the notes and the PC version. Tell us what issues there are.

 

Also, why does it have to be PC or 360 only? Why can't it be a combination of both?


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Matthew J35U5 #13 Posted 09 July 2014 - 07:00 PM

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View PostAnyOLName, on 09 July 2014 - 02:47 PM, said:


Yes, It's a wall o text. Look how big it is.

Yes, I read it all... It's a little biased....

 

Still waiting on a response.

"Walls of text" describe only posts that are not broken up into paragraphs for clarity. The OP did not make a wall of text. This isn't even a particularly long post. Took me like a minute and a half to read it. 


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ZambieSlayer28 #14 Posted 09 July 2014 - 07:01 PM

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View PostMatthew J35U5, on 09 July 2014 - 07:57 PM, said:

@OP, didn't the Tiger and Tiger II not have their engines removed?

yup. they lost those amazing engines 


 


Matthew J35U5 #15 Posted 09 July 2014 - 07:05 PM

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View PostZambieSlayer28, on 09 July 2014 - 03:01 PM, said:

yup. they lost those amazing engines 

Strange you say that considering I'm looking at the Tiger and Tiger II packages right now and both still have their top engines. Did you even bother to look at what had changed?


KeystoneCops, on 14 June 2015 - 12:51 PM, said:


Khor Yserion #16 Posted 09 July 2014 - 07:07 PM

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View Postpoky314, on 09 July 2014 - 08:59 PM, said:

How would you feel if WG offered a premium tank that was so OP that nothing could compete with it for only $200?  Would you buy one or would you want WG to nerf it?

 

Now that's an extreme example.  I'm just saying that I can see times where they will offer a premium that does turn out to be a bit OP, and then they'll either have to nerf it (I'm against nerfing tanks you buy), bump it up in tier level until it balances with the other tanks, or make you park it.

If a tank is OP I would want WG to nerf it, regardless of whether I posses it or not. To me game balance is more important than my personal collection of OP tanks etc. But I feel like this patch broke the german medium line at least up to the Panther II that I'm currently grinding) and is in no way justified...


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View PostMatthew J35U5, on 09 July 2014 - 08:05 PM, said:

Strange you say that considering I'm looking at the Tiger and Tiger II packages right now and both still have their top engines. Did you even bother to look at what had changed?

On the Tiger 1, there was a fourth package which did nothing other than increase the engine to a more powerful one. That entire package has been removed, thus removing the tigers top engine.



Eddy2223 #18 Posted 09 July 2014 - 07:08 PM

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View Postpoky314, on 09 July 2014 - 07:59 PM, said:

How would you feel if WG offered a premium tank that was so OP that nothing could compete with it for only $200?  Would you buy one or would you want WG to nerf it?

 

Now that's an extreme example.  I'm just saying that I can see times where they will offer a premium that does turn out to be a bit OP, and then they'll either have to nerf it (I'm against nerfing tanks you buy), bump it up in tier level until it balances with the other tanks, or make you park it.

Your right WGA would never add an extremely op premium tank... (cough)Pz. V/IV(cough)



poky314 #19 Posted 09 July 2014 - 07:09 PM

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View PostAsgardianShadow, on 09 July 2014 - 03:07 PM, said:

If a tank is OP I would want WG to nerf it, regardless of whether I posses it or not. To me game balance is more important than my personal collection of OP tanks etc. But I feel like this patch broke the german medium line at least up to the Panther II that I'm currently grinding) and is in no way justified...

 

Thanks for answering that;  I think you are the first to even respond when I ask that question.



SquidFire #20 Posted 09 July 2014 - 07:13 PM

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View PostAsgardianShadow, on 09 July 2014 - 08:07 PM, said:

If a tank is OP I would want WG to nerf it, regardless of whether I posses it or not. To me game balance is more important than my personal collection of OP tanks etc. But I feel like this patch broke the german medium line at least up to the Panther II that I'm currently grinding) and is in no way justified...

IMO, the tigers were never OP to begin with. I'm all for balancing the game, but i don't believe the tiger was enough of a threat to warrant a nerf to its engines without some other buff somewhere else.

 

That's where people are getting upset. The PC also buffed the ROF alongside the engine nerf. Im not saying they need to follow those changes exactly, but they should have looked at that as starting point, and went from there.






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