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Open letter to WGA - 1.3 Summary Opinion Pertaining to German Line

team PC team 360 1.3 German nerf buff release balance

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its got ah hemi #21 Posted 09 July 2014 - 07:23 PM

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I think one thing missing about the argument of if the PC never got compensating buffs for engine nerfs then we wouldn't complain is that if that happened then there would be outcry in the PC community. If something already balanced was straight up nerfed there would be outcry regardless. Anyone saying WG shouldn't add the buffs to the Germany line hadn't played German tanks.

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Khor Yserion #22 Posted 09 July 2014 - 07:31 PM

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View PostSquidFire, on 09 July 2014 - 09:13 PM, said:

IMO, the tigers were never OP to begin with. I'm all for balancing the game, but i don't believe the tiger was enough of a threat to warrant a nerf to its engines without some other buff somewhere else.

 

That's where people are getting upset. The PC also buffed the ROF alongside the engine nerf. Im not saying they need to follow those changes exactly, but they should have looked at that as starting point, and went from there.

You are taking my comment and ripping it out of all context.

I never answered to the OP this was merely an answer to poky314s question regarding op tanks and our point of view on them. I don't like the 1.3 changes either in the way they implemented them


Edited by AsgardianShadow, 09 July 2014 - 07:32 PM.

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Quazakaharet #23 Posted 09 July 2014 - 07:31 PM

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very well written PANZERsaurusREX,

 

all my premiums are German tanks as of now. (jtig8.8, t25, pz2J) and it is frustrating.

i was grinding to the final package on tiger 2 and now its gone..

 

i will keep playing, but i will play my German tanks less then they deserve. 



redshadowrider #24 Posted 09 July 2014 - 07:33 PM

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View Postpoky314, on 09 July 2014 - 01:59 PM, said:

How would you feel if WG offered a premium tank that was so OP that nothing could compete with it for only $200?  Would you buy one or would you want WG to nerf it?

 

Now that's an extreme example.  I'm just saying that I can see times where they will offer a premium that does turn out to be a bit OP, and then they'll either have to nerf it (I'm against nerfing tanks you buy), bump it up in tier level until it balances with the other tanks, or make you park it.

I think you have a good point, and if they bump it up it at least keeps it's purchased parameters except for the Tier.  However, the ones I have purchased so far don't come near to meeting the OP criteria.


I'm just saying.....

Neurotic Cell #25 Posted 09 July 2014 - 07:35 PM

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Every little tank is sacred, every little tank is great; if a tank is nerf-updated, the forums explode with hate.

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v Skoll v #26 Posted 09 July 2014 - 07:35 PM

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View PostAnyOLName, on 09 July 2014 - 07:59 PM, said:

Then you have need to account for the difference in playstyles between the PC version and console. While a buff may have been necessary for the PC, they may have determined that it wasn't needed here...for whatever reason. Just because the PC got it, doesn't mean the console needs it. That is true for any game that gets imported from the PC to the console.

 

That's well and good, but ask yourself this then; Were the German Tanks OP or so clearly dominant that they needed to be nerfed?

 

I would say no.  Assuming the Tiger I & II had nerfs (not at xbox currently), what about the Tiger and Tiger II is dominant outside of accuracy?  The Tiger is not the fastest Tier VII Heavy, not the hardest hitting (Alpha nor DPM), has the weakest armor, so why nerf it?  For sake of balance?  If that was the case the Tiger needs some buffs to be more relevant to the T29.

 

Likewise, the Tiger II is hardly the dominant super beast of Tier VIII Heavies.  It is the slowest of the Tier VIII's, doesn't have the highest Alpha, has the lowest DPM currently, does not have the strongest turret nor all around armor, does not have the highest accuracy, etc etc.  So again, what about it needed a straight up nerf? 

 

Let's keep it going though.  The Jagdpanther II needed more weight added and a dropping of engines because.....?  Unlike the T28, T28 Prototype, and AT 15, the JP II claim to fame is being highly mobile and quick.  It lacks the all around armor that the previously mentioned have, and does not have the relatively high penetrating, high Alpha gun that the ISU-152 has.  It has a great gun and quickness, but outside of speed, it does not beat out the others in armor, alpha, DPM, penetration, or RoF.  So, what about it needed nerfing?  Had we gotten the 8.8 changes, it would have lost speed and acceleration, but at least gained 8 d/s on it's track traverse making it more agile at the cost of speed.  Without the addition to the track traverse, now it just get's a nerf to it's speed, the only thing that it had over the other Tier VIII TD's.

 

The only tank on the list of nerfs that could be argued is close to OP or dominant, was the E-75.  Beyond the E-75, why did the German vehicles need to get nerfed?



Prozog #27 Posted 09 July 2014 - 07:36 PM

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View PostPANZERsaurusREX, on 09 July 2014 - 11:47 AM, said:

 

Well, that is an interesting the question isn't it!

 

As I stated, there are two factions here on the forums: Team PC and Team 360. Team PC says that everything is converging on the 8.8 path. Team 360 says WGA has free will to do what they want. I would prefer WGA just goes straight Team PC. The path would be clear. Right now, the path they took was Team Anti-German Tank.

 

So to answer your question, which is purely hypothetical, if the PC didn't have any of the buffs and WGA followed that to a T, I would have expected the exact same results in 1.3. The problem is, what we received was not what was expected by people supporting Team PC.

 I would like to given given an honest answer as to wether or not they even have a clear plan for the future, buecause it really seems they do not. Also seems alot of last minutes tweeks and no oversight.



Dusty Dimmadome #28 Posted 09 July 2014 - 07:37 PM

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   Maybe this update is a chance for German tank drivers to change it up a bit and try driving some other nations. Note I am only referring to the German tank drivers that rarely ever play as any other nations.
 

   More than likely, they were getting complaints from people getting killed by German tanks, so they thought they needed re-balancing, this is part of the reason I never bothered with the German tech tree, I was expecting them to get a somewhat noticeable nerf. But mostly just because they aren't the tanks for me. 


Edited by Lt Slybane, 09 July 2014 - 07:41 PM.

 

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Jodmeister #29 Posted 09 July 2014 - 07:46 PM

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Although most of the hardcore won't play it the Tier2 Panzerjager got nerfed as well. An excellent little sniper with its 5cm gun. It lost it in the update and in return got a minor armour increase meaning you last half a second longer when you get spotted.

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Starbuck66 #30 Posted 09 July 2014 - 07:46 PM

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Honestly I'm more pissed the Russians didn't get a nerf than I am about the Germans getting nerfed.

Kill Process #31 Posted 09 July 2014 - 07:47 PM

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View PostStarbuck66, on 09 July 2014 - 08:46 PM, said:

Honestly I'm more pissed the Russians didn't get a nerf than I am about the Germans getting nerfed.

 

o.o

 

 

You didn't play on PC, did you?

 

 

Just google KV-1S..... muahaha



ogon peredyshku #32 Posted 09 July 2014 - 07:52 PM

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View PostAnyOLName, on 09 July 2014 - 11:47 AM, said:


Yes, It's a wall o text. Look how big it is.

Yes, I read it all... It's a little biased....

 

Still waiting on a response.

 

"Biased"... As in you dont agree so clearly he is exaggerating. 



 


Matthew J35U5 #33 Posted 09 July 2014 - 07:55 PM

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View PostSquidFire, on 09 July 2014 - 03:07 PM, said:

On the Tiger 1, there was a fourth package which did nothing other than increase the engine to a more powerful one. That entire package has been removed, thus removing the tigers top engine.

Try looking at what is in the packages next time. Both the Tiger and Tiger II had those packages removed... And the engine in that package moved into the previous package.


KeystoneCops, on 14 June 2015 - 12:51 PM, said:


Kermodie #34 Posted 09 July 2014 - 07:56 PM

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View Postpoky314, on 09 July 2014 - 12:59 PM, said:

How would you feel if WG offered a premium tank that was so OP that nothing could compete with it for only $200?  Would you buy one or would you want WG to nerf it?

 

Now that's an extreme example.  I'm just saying that I can see times where they will offer a premium that does turn out to be a bit OP, and then they'll either have to nerf it (I'm against nerfing tanks you buy), bump it up in tier level until it balances with the other tanks, or make you park it.

My feeling is that if it is offered and people are aware it is offered then either buy or accept you may play against it.

Now I am sure the comparisons to cod or by or gta will.come. 

I offer this rebuttal preemptive.  There are no player mods no hacks. That 200 tank would be the same other then skill.  And it can be killed just as the pzv/iv could be.

My issue is they offered something and now have changed it strictly for the sake of fairness and balance. Yet fairness would not make it a rare tank would it? It was a limited edition and now to be fair it takes a hit. So to me it takes away faith in the company



CantStumpDTrump #35 Posted 09 July 2014 - 07:57 PM

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Very well written, I hope they see this

ExRaided #36 Posted 09 July 2014 - 07:59 PM

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I still can't comprehend this nerf. I can understand the pz v/iv nerf, but the rest are a joke. I have multiple tier 9s and 10s and I can perform to the same level in each and every one of them.

The germans were in no way in need of a nerf. I can't understand why the heavies would need an engine nerf as they're already slow as hell. 


 

 


SquidFire #37 Posted 09 July 2014 - 08:02 PM

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View PostKermodie, on 09 July 2014 - 08:56 PM, said:

My feeling is that if it is offered and people are aware it is offered then either buy or accept you may play against it.

Now I am sure the comparisons to cod or by or gta will.come. 

I offer this rebuttal preemptive.  There are no player mods no hacks. That 200 tank would be the same other then skill.  And it can be killed just as the pzv/iv could be.

My issue is they offered something and now have changed it strictly for the sake of fairness and balance. Yet fairness would not make it a rare tank would it? It was a limited edition and now to be fair it takes a hit. So to me it takes away faith in the company

If they offered a premium tank which was intentionally OP, the game would lean more towards a pay to win mentality. WOT prides itself in being a FTP game. So that means everything, including things that are paid for, need to be balanced.



voncc #38 Posted 09 July 2014 - 08:04 PM

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View PostPANZERsaurusREX, on 09 July 2014 - 07:32 PM, said:

Dear WGA,

 

This post is an amalgam of comments, presented as a summary interpretation of the German “rebalance” within update 1.3 based upon other posts I have made upon this subject. This is conclusive, so I don't need to post anymore on this subject after this as it is cathartic.

 

As you may know, I am extremely disappointed and shocked at the level of unbalance within this feature release. It appears that you took the 8.8 PC release and followed it to the T for tanks such as the VK 36, but for all other tanks, you adopted the nerfs and omitted nearly all of the buffs. Perhaps this is the part 1 of a greater plan using the 8.8 as a template and you ran out of time? We don’t know because you do not communicate these things to us. All we have to go on are the incomplete release notes you delivered yesterday with no mention by your staff of a greater roadmap.

 

·         Clarity

I want to be perfectly clear as to the purpose of this post. I understand the concept of refactoring. Tanks need to be changed for the sake of balance. The purpose of this post is to point out the half-assed implementation of these changes as they apply to the German line. There are two distinct categories of people within this community. Ones who say the PC is the working template for things to come (Team PC), and those who say the 360 has Carte Blanche freedom to choose their own path (Team 360). When Team 360 calls fowl, Team PC reads the stats from the 8.8+ release and starts throwing out Terms and Conditions in their defense. When Team PC cries foul, Team 360 claims that WGA has full license to do what they want. This is a recursive situation, only WGA knows their roadmap. We are all speculating the intentions and future of this game. All I am doing is pointing out the facts as given to us by the developers as they pertain to the German line in release 1.3.

 

·         Missed Opportunity

1.3 was an opportunity for you to take your own path, Team 360 or converge on the Team PC path. It appears you did both, but only with the downgrades effecting the German line. I offer you an analogy to chess and checkers. Chess contains unique pieces that all have unique performance qualities. That is one of the reasons it is a great game, diversity. No rational person would consider homogenizing functions on the Queen, rook or bishop like restricting their movement to one space. Tanks is filled with unique pieces. Yesterday you normalized the VK 36 and turned it towards the Jumbo side of town. You followed the 8.8 path towards mediocrity. But, when all pieces have been homogenized, you are left with checkers. Your journey towards the PC is not yet complete though, you forgot all of the balancing factors as they pertain to the German tanks. These include, but are not limited to: ROF increases, traverse increases, view range increases and gun depression improvements. If you are converging on the Team PC path, you missed a huge piece of the 8.8 update. If you are diverging towards the Team 360 path, the opportunity not to destroy the VK 36 was lost.

 

·         British Equivelent

Of course, most of the negative backlash came from the German tanker community starting yesterday. We would expect it when our entire garage was downgraded with a single update. But I would expect no different behavior if WGA happened to say nerf  the front armor of the entire AT series with no balancing buffs to counter the nerfs. Would the Brit Tankers be upset? Of course they would. For the sake of a great game I would support the in their cause because balance would be lost. Categorically nerfing an entire line is not fair play, nor is it good mojo. If you don’t understand the disappointment and shock we German tankers have, imagine your entire garage nerfed.

 

·         Critical of the Release Notes

As stated before, the release notes are not the equivalent of the 8.8 release except where the nerfs are concerned. There are a handful of buffs, but in comparison, we are talking 95% nerf and 5% buff. In other places, the notes are just plain wrong, take the very first line of the German notes, Ammunition:

·         Pzgr. 41 StK armor damage increase by 30

·         Pzgr. 41 HK armor damage increased by 30

Right off the bat, this is wrong. Both of these shells are associated with the VK Konish gun, the correct term is "decrease", not "increase". The previous alpha was 165 and now it is 135. So telling us this is an increase is a major oversight.

 

·         VK 36.01 (H)

You guys destroyed this tank. Slower, less damage (see Konish notes above). Increased hit points are lipstick on this pig. Missing ROF increase and gun depression increase parallel to 8.8. Basically all nerf and no buff. You missed the opportunity to balance out the nerf they did in 8.8 but followed it to a T. But since we are using 8.8 as a template for the VK in 1.3...

 

·         Pz.Kpfw. VI Tiger and Beyond

There is a pattern here, but i will address the concerns most of us hard-core German tankers are experiencing. You guys nerfed all of the engines and tried to make up for it in weight reductions, some have increases. This tank is slower, therefore it has been nerfed. The armor decreases are an insult to an already poor-performing tier VII. Before the Great German Nerf, this tank was inferior in almost every way to the T-29. Making it slower and taking away side armor is ridiculous when you forgot to buff it with some balancing factor. No ROF increase, no gun depression improvements, no aim time improvements, small trade-offs in front and back turret armor. But lets not kid ourselves, this wasn't an OP tier VII to begin with.

 

The summary you gave us in the notes is basically one huge engine nerf to the entire German line. For the sake of balance, the 8.8 update included some buffs to the aforementioned specs. 1.3 contains almost none of these buffs and that is why people who run German tanks exclusively are pissed off. Categorically, almost every tank in my garage has been negatively effected with poorer performing engines. I don't know what the expectations were when you put these changes together? You guys followed the nerf of the VK 36 all the way and then only took the negatives from the 8.8 template and applied them to all the rest of the line. You categorically degraded an entire nation of tanks in the name of "balance", congratulations? This was neither Team PC or Team 360, this was Team Anti-German Tank.

 

·         What next?

I currently have 4,555 battles on WoT 360. That comes to roughly 25 battles on average per day. I would may be called a hard core WoT fan, perhaps even an addict. On top of that, I am the 1% Wallet Warrior. Guys like me pay the “free” bill for those who are unable or unwilling to shell out money toward this game. I have purchased all of the German Premium tanks to date less the Lowe. I have given financial support to friends of mine who wanted to dig into this game but were unable to do so at that time. Why? Because I believed this game, so far has been fun, fair and balanced. My time with WoT has been well spent, even if they turned my V/IV into a Pz. III, I would consider the money I spent to date as a very well worth it. I don’t want any sort of refunds nor do I think I am entitled to any. I do want my lost premium ammo to be compensated if I choose to continue to play, but that is a lesser concern of mine. My concern is balance moving forward. I am not going to play with handicapped tanks until the this balance is complete.

 

I am pausing now at 4,555 battles until I am satisfied that WGA has a viable plan to bring balance back to the tanks in my garage. If there is a plan to finish the parallel implementation to the 8.8 release, that is great, I want to know that this is the intention of WGA, to follow Team PC.  To tell you quite honestly, it would make everything much easier. We would know exactly what is coming. The limbo some of us are in right now, is that we don’t know. We speculate that they will finish the refactor of the German tanks, but no statement to that effect has been officially made by any WGA official. Team PC says yes, Team 360 says no. What is the truth?

 

·         Decisions

But one thing is certain, I won’t play until this is sorted out. I want my confidence in WGA restored. As of right now, my financial support for this game and company has halted. Until yesterday, I was ready to purchase the Panther/M10 and was going to convert available XP to the tune of $125 to jump right to the Waffentrager upon its release. But what is the point? Why pay money for these tanks if WGA can destroy their best qualities on a whim and without notice? If WGA is going to follow Team PC, that is totally cool, DO IT! Follow Team PC, give us the balance that 8.8 had in their equivalent release, not this half-implemented, glass half empty garbage you dumped on us German tankers yesterday. If 1.3 is WGA’s divergent path towards Team 360, and there is no plan to balance out the German line, I respectfully choose to walk away.

 

·         Conclusion

My vitriol has been expressed. I fell all of my opinions on this subject have been documented. I am cool with whatever comes next. Catharsis. Just fill this void with lovely, delicious bacon, at the very least, a picture of bacon will suffice.

 

Well said :smile:

Agree 100%

 



Tranan25 #39 Posted 09 July 2014 - 08:13 PM

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I agree with op, thanks for putting it in writing better then I ever could.

 


RAGNAR0K N ROLL #40 Posted 09 July 2014 - 08:14 PM

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Very well written OP

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