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May 1945: Soviet Union vs Western Allies


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Poll: May 1945: Soviet Union vs Western Allies (135 members have cast votes)

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Who Wins?

  1. Soviet Union (40 votes [29.63%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 29.63%

  2. Western Allies (95 votes [70.37%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 70.37%

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NSW Mntd Rifles #261 Posted 30 December 2015 - 07:22 AM

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You guys seem to be gazing in hindsight through a 70 year haze. One could not consider war with the a Soviet Union in 1945 without considering the millions who had gone through the 1920s and the Great Depression believing that Communism was the answer to mankind's ills. To many the Soviet Union was considered the heartland of all that was good or could be good.

 

Consider this scenario. 1945: The Western Aallies go to war with the Soviet Union. Within weeks millions of coalminers, steelworkers, manufacturing workers and stevedores go on strike. There is civil unrest throughout the English speaking world as workers rise up to defend the heartland of a communist ideal that had not yet been discredited. In the former colonial possessions of every power communist leaning independence movements declare revolution. 

 

The world was a very different place in 1945, and a very unstable place. War between the Soviet Union and Western Allies was unthinkable because it would have been unwinnable. Britain & the USA may have lost Europe and the rest of the world would have been thrown into absolute chaos.



Navyman8390 #262 Posted 04 January 2016 - 08:57 PM

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View PostNSW Mntd Rifles, on 30 December 2015 - 02:22 AM, said:

You guys seem to be gazing in hindsight through a 70 year haze. One could not consider war with the a Soviet Union in 1945 without considering the millions who had gone through the 1920s and the Great Depression believing that Communism was the answer to mankind's ills. To many the Soviet Union was considered the heartland of all that was good or could be good.

 

Consider this scenario. 1945: The Western Aallies go to war with the Soviet Union. Within weeks millions of coalminers, steelworkers, manufacturing workers and stevedores go on strike. There is civil unrest throughout the English speaking world as workers rise up to defend the heartland of a communist ideal that had not yet been discredited. In the former colonial possessions of every power communist leaning independence movements declare revolution.

 

The world was a very different place in 1945, and a very unstable place. War between the Soviet Union and Western Allies was unthinkable because it would have been unwinnable. Britain & the USA may have lost Europe and the rest of the world would have been thrown into absolute chaos.

Hmm.  The relatives and friends I had here in PA, U.S.A. from the Great Generation were certainly NOT communist sympathizers.  Here in the States most people considered the commies only slightly less repulsive than the nazis.

And the commies haven't gone anywhere either.  Today they hide out among liberals and progressives.



DStegCat #263 Posted 04 January 2016 - 10:19 PM

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Reality is in May 1945 focus shifts towards Japan.  The reality of that shift and all it entailed left Poland as Yalta proscribed.

Allies were still at war.

Stalin wanted Hokkaido.


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Uranprojekt #264 Posted 04 January 2016 - 11:21 PM

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View PostNavyman8390, on 04 January 2016 - 08:57 PM, said:

Hmm.  The relatives and friends I had here in PA, U.S.A. from the Great Generation were certainly NOT communist sympathizers.  Here in the States most people considered the commies only slightly less repulsive than the nazis.

And the commies haven't gone anywhere either.  Today they hide out among liberals and progressives.

 

"Most people considered the commies only slightly less repulsive than the nazis."

 

Do you have any evidence to support this claim that isn't anecdotal "evidence" passed down from family members? A poll that surveyed every single American in 1945 for their thoughts on communism, perhaps?


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I write things, things which can be found in Historical Discussions. Things like this article on the Soviet invasion of Manchuria in 1945 and this article on the Spanish Civil War.

 

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Metalrodent #265 Posted 04 January 2016 - 11:56 PM

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View PostNavyman8390, on 04 January 2016 - 08:57 PM, said:

And the commies haven't gone anywhere either.  Today they hide out among liberals and progressives.

 

Lol

 

That statement amuses me greatly for many reasons.

 

Anyway should probably move along before thread lock


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Matthew J35U5 #266 Posted 04 January 2016 - 11:57 PM

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Even if communism wasn't especially popular in 1945, the Soviet Union was, mostly due to endless news reports portraying them in highly favourable ways. It took a few years for people to change their feelings about them. 

KeystoneCops, on 14 June 2015 - 12:51 PM, said:


Navyman8390 #267 Posted 05 January 2016 - 12:46 AM

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View PostMatthew J35U5, on 04 January 2016 - 06:57 PM, said:

Even if communism wasn't especially popular in 1945, the Soviet Union was, mostly due to endless news reports portraying them in highly favourable ways. It took a few years for people to change their feelings about them.

The news media have always had their cherrished darlings.  They just carefully conceal them to keep in line with public sentiment.

Don't worry about thread lock metalrodent.  Nobody has named any names.

 



Matthew J35U5 #268 Posted 05 January 2016 - 01:27 AM

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View PostNavyman8390, on 04 January 2016 - 07:46 PM, said:

The news media have always had their cherrished darlings.  They just carefully conceal them to keep in line with public sentiment.

Don't worry about thread lock metalrodent.  Nobody has named any names.

 

 

I get that you're trying to portray the media as communist sympathizers, but prior to the Soviet Union being invaded by the Germans, they had mostly negative coverage, and public opinion was very unfavourable.

KeystoneCops, on 14 June 2015 - 12:51 PM, said:


NSW Mntd Rifles #269 Posted 05 January 2016 - 07:09 PM

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View PostNavyman8390, on 05 January 2016 - 06:57 AM, said:

Hmm.  The relatives and friends I had here in PA, U.S.A. from the Great Generation were certainly NOT communist sympathizers.  Here in the States most people considered the commies only slightly less repulsive than the nazis.

And the commies haven't gone anywhere either.  Today they hide out among liberals and progressives.

My family were never Communist sympathisers either but my studies of labour history have shown me that, in the 1940s, many trade unions had communist or socialist leadership. I live in a coal mining town (not my birthplace) and have known many who were active members of the Communist Party of Australia. The German invasion of Russia in 1941 had been a rallying cry for trade unions in allied countries to support the war effort. Prior to that the unions had seen the war as another capitalist conflict and had not given it their full support.

 

I am often amused at the word "liberal". In the 19th Century Liberalism was the intellectual force behind democracy. Liberal revolutionaries like Garibaldi broke down despotic kingdoms and liberated colonies from imperial rule. In my country the main conservative political party is called the Liberal Party. :)



Uranprojekt #270 Posted 05 January 2016 - 07:15 PM

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View PostNSW Mntd Rifles, on 05 January 2016 - 07:09 PM, said:

My family were never Communist sympathisers either but my studies of labour history have shown me that, in the 1940s, many trade unions had communist or socialist leadership. I live in a coal mining town (not my birthplace) and have known many who were active members of the Communist Party of Australia. The German invasion of Russia in 1941 had been a rallying cry for trade unions in allied countries to support the war effort. Prior to that the unions had seen the war as another capitalist conflict and had not given it their full support.

 

I am often amused at the word "liberal". In the 19th Century Liberalism was the intellectual force behind democracy. Liberal revolutionaries like Garibaldi broke down despotic kingdoms and liberated colonies from imperial rule. In my country the main conservative political party is called the Liberal Party. :)

 

Liberalism, particularly in America, has become somewhat removed from it's origins. Apparently it's a byword for communism to the average American, despite the fact that liberal ideologies supported the freedom of the individual which communism doesn't. Alas, this isn't the place to be arguing with Americans about their misplaced views on what does and doesn't constitute as liberalism, lest we get the thread shut down double-quick. 


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I write things, things which can be found in Historical Discussions. Things like this article on the Soviet invasion of Manchuria in 1945 and this article on the Spanish Civil War.

 

To those of you who don't molest the English language, I salute you. For everyone else, there's this handy link; http://www.reverso.n...elling-grammar/


NSW Mntd Rifles #271 Posted 05 January 2016 - 08:48 PM

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View PostUranprojekt, on 06 January 2016 - 05:15 AM, said:

 

Liberalism, particularly in America, has become somewhat removed from it's origins. Apparently it's a byword for communism to the average American, despite the fact that liberal ideologies supported the freedom of the individual which communism doesn't. Alas, this isn't the place to be arguing with Americans about their misplaced views on what does and doesn't constitute as liberalism, lest we get the thread shut down double-quick. 

 

My lips are sealed. :hiding:

NSW Mntd Rifles #272 Posted 05 January 2016 - 08:59 PM

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In Australia the Miners' Federation was dominated by democratically elected communists. This 1942 short documentary was directed at this workforce.. http://aso.gov.au/ti...r-to-win/clip1/

 

In the late 1940s the British people elected a Labour Government with the mandate to nationalise industry and in places like Australia huge industrial battles were being fought out up to the 1950s when there was a massive struggle between Communist union leaders and more moderate voices.

 

My real point was that one must look beyond the purely military when discussing the waging of war. It doesn't matter whether one has the best technology if the people responsible for providing that technology are not committed to the process. 1945 was no time for the English speaking world to wage war on the Soviet Union.


Edited by NSW Mntd Rifles, 05 January 2016 - 09:04 PM.


Uranprojekt #273 Posted 05 January 2016 - 09:47 PM

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View PostNSW Mntd Rifles, on 05 January 2016 - 08:59 PM, said:

In Australia the Miners' Federation was dominated by democratically elected communists. This 1942 short documentary was directed at this workforce.. http://aso.gov.au/ti...r-to-win/clip1/

 

In the late 1940s the British people elected a Labour Government with the mandate to nationalise industry and in places like Australia huge industrial battles were being fought out up to the 1950s when there was a massive struggle between Communist union leaders and more moderate voices.

 

My real point was that one must look beyond the purely military when discussing the waging of war. It doesn't matter whether one has the best technology if the people responsible for providing that technology are not committed to the process. 1945 was no time for the English speaking world to wage war on the Soviet Union.

 

The Labour government in Britain under Clement Atlee was elected almost as soon as the war ended. Well, not quite as soon as that but Atlee won the election in 1945, ousting Churchill. It wasn't just nationalisation of industry that won Labour that election either, Atlee had promised a whole host of social and economic reforms including, but not limited to, the National Health Service and social welfare; reforms that the British people wanted and, during Atlee's term as PM, got.

 

Interestingly, the NHS was something that Churchill's government looked into during the war, I believe the government report which explored the idea was published in 1942, but got dismissed in 1943/44.


War does not determine who is right, only who is left - Bertrand Russell

 

I write things, things which can be found in Historical Discussions. Things like this article on the Soviet invasion of Manchuria in 1945 and this article on the Spanish Civil War.

 

To those of you who don't molest the English language, I salute you. For everyone else, there's this handy link; http://www.reverso.n...elling-grammar/


Navyman8390 #274 Posted 06 January 2016 - 05:06 PM

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View PostUranprojekt, on 05 January 2016 - 04:47 PM, said:

 

The Labour government in Britain under Clement Atlee was elected almost as soon as the war ended. Well, not quite as soon as that but Atlee won the election in 1945, ousting Churchill. It wasn't just nationalisation of industry that won Labour that election either, Atlee had promised a whole host of social and economic reforms including, but not limited to, the National Health Service and social welfare; reforms that the British people wanted and, during Atlee's term as PM, got.

 

Interestingly, the NHS was something that Churchill's government looked into during the war, I believe the government report which explored the idea was published in 1942, but got dismissed in 1943/44.

National Healthcare. Social Welfare. So on and so forth.  The ones that promise stuff and goodies always have an edge at the polls even if the promises might be economically un-adviseable or threaten a certain loss of rights and liberties.


Edited by Navyman8390, 06 January 2016 - 05:07 PM.


Uranprojekt #275 Posted 06 January 2016 - 07:42 PM

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View PostNavyman8390, on 06 January 2016 - 05:06 PM, said:

National Healthcare. Social Welfare. So on and so forth.  The ones that promise stuff and goodies always have an edge at the polls even if the promises might be economically un-adviseable or threaten a certain loss of rights and liberties.

 

Oh yes, because forcing people to pay inordinate sums of money for medical care and helping struggling families to pay their rent/mortgage and everyday bills with things like benefit payments through the welfare system totally denies people certain rights and liberties.


War does not determine who is right, only who is left - Bertrand Russell

 

I write things, things which can be found in Historical Discussions. Things like this article on the Soviet invasion of Manchuria in 1945 and this article on the Spanish Civil War.

 

To those of you who don't molest the English language, I salute you. For everyone else, there's this handy link; http://www.reverso.n...elling-grammar/


KaiserVonKrieg #276 Posted 06 January 2016 - 07:44 PM

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View PostSqn Ldr B, on 07 December 2015 - 11:31 AM, said:

 

They were also inept at being alive. And therefore inept on the battlefield.

 

Those punch lines though.

 



dcr66 #277 Posted 06 January 2016 - 08:10 PM

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The Soviet Army is quite strong at the end of war. The lack of technology was made up by fanaticism and head count. Soviet had fighters so any Allies bombing attempt will not be kept unchecked.

 

I am not too certain whether the Nazi German armed forces would be trusted by either side that quickly. There were certain Nazi hardcore within it that would have caused problems. Those German technologically superior weapons were in poor shape or too low count to matter.


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Navyman8390 #278 Posted 07 January 2016 - 02:55 AM

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View PostUranprojekt, on 06 January 2016 - 02:42 PM, said:

 

Oh yes, because forcing people to pay inordinate sums of money for medical care and helping struggling families to pay their rent/mortgage and everyday bills with things like benefit payments through the welfare system totally denies people certain rights and liberties.

If the free market forces were fully un-leashed on healtcare and the blood sucking attornys buried in garlic the cost of healthcare would come down if unfettered by buerocractic medling.  And while its noble and right to help the poor and struggling the current entitlement paradigm keeps them dependant.  The thing they need most is employment and upward mobility which won't happen under the current regulatory/tax/international trade structure.  Private Sector must increase and bueurocracy must decrease.



Navyman8390 #279 Posted 07 January 2016 - 03:01 AM

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View PostUranprojekt, on 04 January 2016 - 06:21 PM, said:

 

"Most people considered the commies only slightly less repulsive than the nazis."

 

Do you have any evidence to support this claim that isn't anecdotal "evidence" passed down from family members? A poll that surveyed every single American in 1945 for their thoughts on communism, perhaps?

No poll of course.  Although for a time the work of a certain senator, Joe McCarthy was considere important and popular.



Uranprojekt #280 Posted 07 January 2016 - 04:04 AM

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View PostNavyman8390, on 07 January 2016 - 02:55 AM, said:

If the free market forces were fully un-leashed on healtcare and the blood sucking attornys buried in garlic the cost of healthcare would come down if unfettered by buerocractic medling.  And while its noble and right to help the poor and struggling the current entitlement paradigm keeps them dependant.  The thing they need most is employment and upward mobility which won't happen under the current regulatory/tax/international trade structure.  Private Sector must increase and bueurocracy must decrease.

 

You have your beliefs, I have mine. I will not be continuing this particular discussion as it will result in an irrelevant and stubborn butting of heads.

 

View PostNavyman8390, on 07 January 2016 - 03:01 AM, said:

No poll of course.  Although for a time the work of a certain senator, Joe McCarthy was considere important and popular.

 

Ah yes, Joe McCarthy...

 

The senator with anti-communist hardon so large it could be viewed from space. The senator who accused the State Department of employing some 205 communists.

Or was it 81?

Maybe it was 57?

 

I'm as unsure about his unsubstantiated claims as he was. Popularity does not equal credibility, plus McCarthy didn't start his Red Scare fear-mongering campaign until the 50s (i.e. after 1945, which was the year mentioned), so I suggest that you find a better source for your unsubstantiated claims,


War does not determine who is right, only who is left - Bertrand Russell

 

I write things, things which can be found in Historical Discussions. Things like this article on the Soviet invasion of Manchuria in 1945 and this article on the Spanish Civil War.

 

To those of you who don't molest the English language, I salute you. For everyone else, there's this handy link; http://www.reverso.n...elling-grammar/





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