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History Channel Hatchet Job


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Matthew J35U5 #1 Posted 16 January 2015 - 05:14 AM

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Here we have the history channel at its finest: happily spreading nonsense to fill their time slots. I was initially considering enumerating each thing I felt to be misleading and/or incorrect, but upon reflection I realized that would consist of complaining about literally almost everything in the video.

So, lets play a game: You, the contestants are to post one thing from the video that was misleading or counterfactual. I will give +1's to each person with an answer. (It would be helpful to also list the timestamp). 

Spoiler

KeystoneCops, on 14 June 2015 - 12:51 PM, said:


STLxSTANG #2 Posted 16 January 2015 - 05:18 AM

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Tanks that are good at firing HE are terrible for war fighting

 

 

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STLxSTANG #3 Posted 16 January 2015 - 05:19 AM

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Every tank Sherman's encountered were Tigers and Panthers, right?

 

 

(Im stopping here to provide fun for other people)


 

 

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leova #4 Posted 16 January 2015 - 06:00 AM

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Discovery Channel does a much better Sherman video, much longer and gives a reason as for WHY it was outgunned and outarmored by the Tigers



STLxSTANG #5 Posted 16 January 2015 - 06:29 AM

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^Didnt watch this yet but I think its safe to say they are still missing the point.

 

You can have one man with a rifle or eight men with carbines. Which would you choose?


 

 

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BlakeG287 #6 Posted 16 January 2015 - 07:03 AM

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View Postleova, on 16 January 2015 - 01:00 AM, said:

Discovery Channel does a much better Sherman video, much longer and gives a reason as for WHY it was outgunned and outarmored by the Tigers

Very informative! I liked it. Thanks for the find...


 

 


ChekmateKingTwo #7 Posted 16 January 2015 - 10:32 AM

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Real history left that channel a long time ago.  Hard to put much credit into a "history" channel that focuses on UFOs and other non history reality show topics.



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I3iggus Nickus #8 Posted 16 January 2015 - 11:10 AM

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$#%@ your +1's :P

 


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Major Fulcrum #9 Posted 16 January 2015 - 11:47 AM

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View PostSTLxSTANG, on 16 January 2015 - 06:29 AM, said:

^Didnt watch this yet but I think its safe to say they are still missing the point.

 

You can have one man with a rifle or eight men with carbines. Which would you choose?

 

If it's eight M1 Carbines vs 1 M1 Garand, I'll take the M1 Carbine. , that gun is just so badass.

 



Uranprojekt #10 Posted 16 January 2015 - 12:45 PM

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Time stamp: 3:08

 

The video has this guy, no idea what his name his, talking about how the Sherman originally had a 75 mm gun designed to fire HE. He then goes on to talk about how this gun was inadequate against the Tiger and Panther. What he fails to mention is that American doctrine was for tanks to engage infantry and infantry strongpoints and avoid engagements with enemy tanks wherever possible. The engagement of tanks was the job of the American TD divisions. I find it rather misleading that this guy would talk about the Sherman being inferior to German tanks without mentioning the fact that American tanks weren't supposed to engage German tanks if they could avoid it which is why the Sherman was designed to fire HE over AP. AP was more for self defence should the Sherman encounter a German tank.

 

I forget the time stamp but another bit that annoys me is the talk of the engine the Sherman used. All tanks use highly flammable fuel, all fuel will ignite if sparked. The Sherman gets singled out because it used "high octane fuel in an aircraft engine." The British used the Merlin engine, an engine used in countless British fighter and bomber aircraft, in the Cromwell yet the Cromwell doesn't have a reputation of going up in flames in the same way that the Sherman does, despite also using an engine originally intended for an aircraft. In fact, a lot of British tanks used aircraft engines but not one single British tank has a reputation for going up in flames like the Sherman does.


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Major Fulcrum #11 Posted 16 January 2015 - 12:46 PM

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View PostUranprojekt, on 16 January 2015 - 12:45 PM, said:

Time stamp: 3:08

 

The video has this guy, no idea what his name his, talking about how the Sherman originally had a 75 mm gun designed to fire HE. He then goes on to talk about how this gun was inadequate against the Tiger and Panther. What he fails to mention is that American doctrine was for tanks to engage infantry and infantry strongpoints and avoid engagements with enemy tanks wherever possible. The engagement of tanks was the job of the American TD divisions. I find it rather misleading that this guy would talk about the Sherman being inferior to German tanks without mentioning the fact that American tanks weren't supposed to engage German tanks if they could avoid it which is why the Sherman was designed to fire HE over AP. AP was more for self defence should the Sherman encounter a German tank.

 

I forget the time stamp but another bit that annoys me is the talk of the engine the Sherman used. All tanks use highly flammable fuel, all fuel will ignite if sparked. The Sherman gets singled out because it used "high octane fuel in an aircraft engine." The British used the Merlin engine, an engine used in countless British fighter and bomber aircraft, in the Cromwell yet the Cromwell doesn't have a reputation of going up in flames in the same way that the Sherman does, despite also using an engine originally intended for an aircraft. In fact, a lot of British tanks used aircraft engines but not one single British tank has a reputation for going up in flames like the Sherman does.

 

Didn't the M4 Sherman have a sufficient AP round to penetrate the sides of Panthers?

Uranprojekt #12 Posted 16 January 2015 - 12:55 PM

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View PostMajor Fulcrum, on 16 January 2015 - 12:46 PM, said:

 

Didn't the M4 Sherman have a sufficient AP round to penetrate the sides of Panthers?

 

Yes, but the Shermans that used the 75 mm weren't supposed to engage Panthers or any other tank for that matter. Like I said, the AP rounds were meant for self defence should the Sherman encounter a German tank, Shermans were never supposed to actively find and engage enemy armour. The majority of the Sherman tanks carried a higher ratio of HE over AP because they were meant to engage infantry and buildings containing lots of infantry.

 


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Major Fulcrum #13 Posted 16 January 2015 - 12:55 PM

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View PostUranprojekt, on 16 January 2015 - 12:55 PM, said:

 

Yes, but the Shermans that used the 75 mm weren't supposed to engage Panthers or any other tank for that matter. Like I said, the AP rounds were meant for self defence should the Sherman encounter a German tank, Shermans were never supposed to actively find and engage enemy armour. The majority of the Sherman tanks carried a higher ratio of HE over AP because they were meant to engage infantry and buildings containing lots of infantry.

 

 

I know, I was just asking.


Thanks for the info.



HighSpyker #14 Posted 16 January 2015 - 01:03 PM

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To this, let me add that the M4's reputation as easily set on fire was due to improper ammo storage in the turret.

 

Probably also worth noting that the Germans originally had infantry tanks and tank-killer tanks (like the British Cruiser/Infantry concept), but a taste of real combat changed their mind...and the Pz IV, originally meant for mobile fire support, became the most-used German tank.



Uranprojekt #15 Posted 16 January 2015 - 01:09 PM

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I'd like to add that, and this was something else totally ignored in the video, the M4 Sherman entered service in 1942. The Tiger also entered service in 1942 and the Panther didn't enter service until 1943. The Sherman was designed to defeat the Pz. III's and IV's already in service should the Shermans encounter them.

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I write things, things which can be found in Historical Discussions. Things like this article on the Soviet invasion of Manchuria in 1945 and this article on the Spanish Civil War.

 

To those of you who don't molest the English language, I salute you. For everyone else, there's this handy link; http://www.reverso.n...elling-grammar/


Nocturnal814 #16 Posted 16 January 2015 - 01:15 PM

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View PostSTLxSTANG, on 16 January 2015 - 06:29 AM, said:

^Didnt watch this yet but I think its safe to say they are still missing the point.

 

You can have one man with a rifle or eight men with carbines. Which would you choose?

 

depends on the situation. In an open field with high visibility the rifle would be far deadlier. Keep in mind how many people one sniper can suppress just by his mere existence.

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Nocturnal814 #17 Posted 16 January 2015 - 01:15 PM

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View PostUranprojekt, on 16 January 2015 - 01:09 PM, said:

I'd like to add that, and this was something else totally ignored in the video, the M4 Sherman entered service in 1942. The Tiger also entered service in 1942 and the Panther didn't enter service until 1943. The Sherman was designed to defeat the Pz. III's and IV's already in service should the Shermans encounter them.

 

no it wasnt. It was designed to kill infantry. 

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FauxCanuck #18 Posted 16 January 2015 - 01:22 PM

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I think my favorite part was right at the beginning, when the guy explaining that the Sherman is a medium tank goes about it in the most obtuse way possible: "The Sherman was somewhere between a small, light tank and a heavy, monstrous tank." Well, ya don't say?

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Matthew J35U5 #19 Posted 16 January 2015 - 01:23 PM

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View PostUranprojekt, on 16 January 2015 - 07:45 AM, said:

Time stamp: 3:08

 

The video has this guy, no idea what his name his, talking about how the Sherman originally had a 75 mm gun designed to fire HE. He then goes on to talk about how this gun was inadequate against the Tiger and Panther. What he fails to mention is that American doctrine was for tanks to engage infantry and infantry strongpoints and avoid engagements with enemy tanks wherever possible. The engagement of tanks was the job of the American TD divisions. I find it rather misleading that this guy would talk about the Sherman being inferior to German tanks without mentioning the fact that American tanks weren't supposed to engage German tanks if they could avoid it which is why the Sherman was designed to fire HE over AP. AP was more for self defence should the Sherman encounter a German tank.

 

I forget the time stamp but another bit that annoys me is the talk of the engine the Sherman used. All tanks use highly flammable fuel, all fuel will ignite if sparked. The Sherman gets singled out because it used "high octane fuel in an aircraft engine." The British used the Merlin engine, an engine used in countless British fighter and bomber aircraft, in the Cromwell yet the Cromwell doesn't have a reputation of going up in flames in the same way that the Sherman does, despite also using an engine originally intended for an aircraft. In fact, a lot of British tanks used aircraft engines but not one single British tank has a reputation for going up in flames like the Sherman does.

They do at some point mention that according to American ideas tanks are not supposed to engage tanks. This assertion is not correct. If I were to show you this document, would you like to show me where it is stated that tanks are not supposed to engage tanks? 

It would be more fair to say that according to American doctrine  tanks are supposed to be able to do more than just engage tanks. 

Regarding the engines, it is extremely misleading for the history channel to harp on about it when:
The Sherman was no more prone to engine/fuel fires than any other tank.
The Shermans operated by the Americans in the ETO were the least flammable tanks used by any combatants. 

View PostUranprojekt, on 16 January 2015 - 08:09 AM, said:

I'd like to add that, and this was something else totally ignored in the video, the M4 Sherman entered service in 1942. The Tiger also entered service in 1942 and the Panther didn't enter service until 1943. The Sherman was designed to defeat the Pz. III's and IV's already in service should the Shermans encounter them.

The narrative does give them impression that the Sherman was specially designed for the Normandy invasion rather than having already been produced in its thousands by 1944. 


KeystoneCops, on 14 June 2015 - 12:51 PM, said:


Matthew J35U5 #20 Posted 16 January 2015 - 01:36 PM

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View PostSTLxSTANG, on 16 January 2015 - 12:18 AM, said:

Tanks that are good at firing HE are terrible for war fighting

Obviously a tank that is good at doing what tanks spent 90% of their time doing is horrible, yeah?

View PostSTLxSTANG, on 16 January 2015 - 12:19 AM, said:

Every tank Sherman's encountered were Tigers and Panthers, right?

 

 

(Im stopping here to provide fun for other people)

Well, according to the narrator, since all german tanks fired shells at 1070 m/s, all german tanks were Panthers. And since all german tanks required the Sherman to get within 600 yards of its side to get a kill, all German tanks were Tigers. Never mind that Panthers and Pz. IV's were vulnerable at very long range to side shots. 

View PostSTLxSTANG, on 16 January 2015 - 01:29 AM, said:

^Didnt watch this yet but I think its safe to say they are still missing the point.

 

You can have one man with a rifle or eight men with carbines. Which would you choose?

Nah, more like you can have every one of your infantry divisions have as much armour support as the enemy's tank divisions do. Basically every American division was a tank division. And then if you needed more armour, the Americans have even more powerful armoured divisions as well. 


KeystoneCops, on 14 June 2015 - 12:51 PM, said:





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