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WWII: Alternative History as Germany

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Warspite 1996 #21 Posted 23 February 2015 - 12:25 AM

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View PostPvt pwnge, on 23 February 2015 - 12:14 AM, said:

Out of curiousity, what made the Panther's Design suck?

 

i understand why you say it about the Tiger, but not the Panther. 

 

I mean, early versions failed beause of fast production, but what was the design flaw?

 

General unreliability. Tank wasn't particularly effective as an anti-infanty platform. Weak turret and side armour meant it was quite vulnerable to higher caliber weaponry.

R35T NO MORE #22 Posted 23 February 2015 - 12:27 AM

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Pvt pwnge #23 Posted 23 February 2015 - 12:28 AM

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View PostWarspite 1996, on 22 February 2015 - 04:25 PM, said:

 

General unreliability. Tank wasn't particularly effective as an anti-infanty platform. Weak turret and side armour meant it was quite vulnerable to higher caliber weaponry.

Ah i see. Thank you for the response.


 


Matthew J35U5 #24 Posted 23 February 2015 - 12:57 AM

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View PostCaptain TJ, on 22 February 2015 - 05:49 PM, said:

Germany, 1930. You have taken on the role of Adolf Hitler, and are ready to begin expanding the Third Reich. 

This thread does not focus on the Holocaust, nor does it focus on any other atrocities committed by Hitler and the Nazi Party. This is a purely hypothetical idea. What would you do differently as Adolf Hitler if you had the gift of Hindsight and knew where you had failed the first time. As Hitler, given a second chance at the Third Reich, what steps would you take to ensure victory? 

This thread also assumes control over any members of the Axis. All Allied powers should have their responses estimated as close as possible to what they would have been under this alternative history. How would you ensure complete German, Italian, Japanese, and Spanish domination, not just of Europe but of the world? It helps if you make these decisions according to a timeline for the events but that isn't required, it just allows the rest of us to make sense of it. 

Examples include: Ensuring that the British never get a chance to look at the magnetic mines that could have ended the war with them before a shot was fired. Not engaging in a two-front war. Directing the Japanese to target British colonies in India and their allies in Australia and the Philippines, as well as pushing further into China to prepare to join the Germans in taking out the USSR from two directions... Getting the Spanish on their feet after the civil war and instructing Spain to construct a large fleet, make sure the emissary to Mexico is not intercepted and the Mexicans hear the german proposal for an alliance, coordinate an attack against the US and Canada between Mexico, Japan, Spain and Germany...

 Just some ideas. I want to hear how each of you would go about winning the war, as I know we have some brilliant historians and tacticians on these forums. 

The rules include not touching on atrocities (surprise attacks such as Pearl Harbor are allowed, no attacks against civilians, bombing targets excluded, merchants excluded), sticking to the dogma as close as possible, but it is okay to ignore dogma for a time (such as communism is a poison, BUT the British are pretty annoying so let's off them first and worry about the Commies later), small scale operations and large scale operations are allowed, touch on manufacturing and economics if you must, most importantly have fun trying to win!

I look forward to seeing what these brilliant minds can come up with. 

If I may, the historical discussions forum is a better place for this. I don't mean to say that in a negative way, but because the historical forum is a bit slower this topic will exist for... well pretty much forever. (Idk, 6+ months). Chances are this thread will get buried in a day or two which will be rather unfortunate. I'll think about this later, but for now I'll just look at what other people are thinking.

View PostIcesev, on 22 February 2015 - 05:55 PM, said:

Obviously focus on designs such as the Pz III over ideas like the Panther or Tiger, which aren't the best of designs.

Another one, become friends with Stalin very early on.

Build nice planes like Focke Wulf 190s and BF109s.

Maintain aerial superiority.

Don't have good generals assassinated.

Don't be an idiot.

Don't be insane.

A long-term friendship with Stalin is impossible, as Hitler sees no possible direction for Germany other than expansion to the east. Because blah blah blah, US is jew-run cabal that will take over the world unless Germany can become as big and powerful as the US. 

View PostBeef McLargeBig, on 22 February 2015 - 05:55 PM, said:

1. Not invade the USSR

2. Tell scientists that their main priority is to perfect Panther/Tiger designs`and improved small arms. Any scientist who gives me some stupid superweapon idea goes to camp. 

3. Scrap large portions of the U-Boat fleet and use the metal for further production

4. Make sure people don't get lazy with Enigma machines.

And other stuff which I'll probably think of later.

 

U-Boats were actually one of the few good things Germany had going for it. Remove the surface fleet, and you possibly have enough U-boats to starve Britain into submission. 
And of course, not invading the USSR at all is impossible because of idealogical constraints. 

View PostLynn Do Wicker, on 22 February 2015 - 06:07 PM, said:

Not invade USSR. Talk Japan out of pearl harbor. Those are the two biggest mistakes that cost the axis WWII

At least don't side with Japan against America. Hypothetically if Britain were forced to surrender, America involving itself in the Pacific could buy you enough time to attempt to conquer the USSR, which as I have noted previously is not something that Nazi Germany can't do. 

View PostDRAGON ZR0, on 22 February 2015 - 06:23 PM, said:

Defeat Britain before invading Russia!

Use sloped armor.

Don't rely on the Italians.

Make Paris smell not like pee.

Don't ostracize potential soldiers(IE: Non Germans)

Help Japan with their Oil shortage.

Let your Generals fight the way they want to fight!

Demand that 122mm guns must be on everything.:trollface:

How can Germany help Japan with its oil shortage? That is, with only access to Rumanian oil, it is rather difficult to supply Japan with oil, especially when Germany needs Rumanian oil for its own needs. 

I want to write sometime on how the whole, "Hitler should have left the soldiering to the generals" is rather misplaced. 

View PostLemonGem3021668, on 22 February 2015 - 06:25 PM, said:

My friends and I where talking about this awhile ago, and this is what I came up with. I have divided my Ideas into 3 categories: Land, Sea, and Air.

 

Land: I would focus on producing improved Panzer III and IV designs instead of building Tigers and Panthers, much less Mauses. Sloped armor and Torsion Bar suspension with inter weaved roadwheels to carry the extra weight . Continue development of the successful STuG-III design, incorporate part similarity to the Panzer III and IV with torsion bar suspension and sloped armor. Continue development of the Flak 88mm. Create a more easily deployable version with improved anti tank capabilities.

 

Air: Instead building Me-262s, I would have produced more Me-109s with improved engines to allow them to go faster. Dedicated interceptor aircraft would be a good idea as well. Improving the Stuka with retractavble landing gear would be useful, and arming them with armor-piercing bombs would be good to combat Shermans. A large long range bomber like the B-17 would be very useful to attack the British islands at night and cripple their industries. 

 

Sea: Throw more resources into Cruisers and Battleships. Germany did not possess a strong fleet. Hitler had a good Idea with plan "Z" but didn't leave himself enough time to finish it. I would have gone ahead with plan Z and continued to improve it.

 

That's just what I would do though.

The cruisers and battleships were rather a waste of resources. Better to build more U-boats. 

View PostSyks7, on 22 February 2015 - 06:47 PM, said:

Operation Sea Lion.  If he hadn't gotten impatient and decided to go after Russia, Germany could have crossed the channel and crushed Great Britain before lend lease really got going and before before they british were fully galvanized.

 

http://en.wikipedia....ration_Sea_Lion

 

Or conversely not get bogged down in useless objectives like Stalingrad.  If they isolate Stalingrad and push into the much more strategic oil fields beyond it, they're in much better shape.

Sea lion is almost literally impossible. 

The Stalingrad campaign is more appropriately seen as a problem of trying to do too much with too little. Army group South just didn't really have the necessary resources, and Stavka has very large reserves it can use to counter Army group south. 

View PostSUD123, on 22 February 2015 - 07:07 PM, said:

It's pointless as you need to assume that the Allies make the exact same, or similar,  grossly incompetent moves.  The fact is that Germany simply did not possess the economic strength necessary to defeat their opponents and the only reason they came somewhat close is because of the utter incompetence of the allied leaders & military commanders at the outset.

 

TBH, I think this is the actual answer. 

View PostPvt pwnge, on 22 February 2015 - 07:14 PM, said:

Out of curiousity, what made the Panther's Design suck?

 

i understand why you say it about the Tiger, but not the Panther. 

 

I mean, early versions failed beause of fast production, but what was the design flaw?

Well, look at it this way:
Say that the "cost" of a vehicle can be modelled by its weight, because that will give you an idea of how much resources were put into it, and how big it likely is. 
The Panther and the IS-2 cost the same amount...
The Panther is very vulnerable except in a very narrow frontal arc. The IS-2 is relatively well protected across a much wider frontal arc. 

The Panther is only really effective against tanks, or against individual infantry that it can engage with its coaxial. The IS-2 has a multipurpose gun that works against tanks, fortifications, infantry, can even work as a make-shift field gun for indirect fire support. 

And then of course you have the issue that the Panther is a 45 ton tank on a suspension & drive train meant for a 30-35 ton tank. 


KeystoneCops, on 14 June 2015 - 12:51 PM, said:


GUNMETALGREY1 #25 Posted 23 February 2015 - 02:01 AM

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When I invade Russia, I come bearing gifts to the civilian population and as a liberator. I go to great lengths to sway the Ukrainians, White Russians and all the people of the Baltic States to help me overthrow the Communist regime. My army builds infrastructure and gives support to the Russian people as it advances. Once I have gained the support of the people, which won't take much as there is little love for Stalin, I rid the world of Bolshivism and can then dictate terms and prop up a puppet regime or restore the  Czar as a figurehead.

With my Eastern front secure and a supply of oil and food and a manpower supply to boost production, I turn my attention to England.

With my new found economic base, I increase U-boat production and starve England into submission or at very least force them to the negotiation table. I now go over to the strategic defensive and await further developments and opportunities.

 

 

 



Run3scaped #26 Posted 23 February 2015 - 03:27 AM

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View PostGUNMETALGREY1, on 22 February 2015 - 09:01 PM, said:

When I invade Russia, I come bearing gifts to the civilian population and as a liberator. I go to great lengths to sway the Ukrainians, White Russians and all the people of the Baltic States to help me overthrow the Communist regime. My army builds infrastructure and gives support to the Russian people as it advances. Once I have gained the support of the people, which won't take much as there is little love for Stalin, I rid the world of Bolshivism and can then dictate terms and prop up a puppet regime or restore the  Czar as a figurehead.

With my Eastern front secure and a supply of oil and food and a manpower supply to boost production, I turn my attention to England.

With my new found economic base, I increase U-boat production and starve England into submission or at very least force them to the negotiation table. I now go over to the strategic defensive and await further developments and opportunities.

 

 

 

Good idea, invade the Russians first?


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TWISTED METAL V #27 Posted 23 February 2015 - 03:53 AM

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I would yell less, I would not spread Lies or propoganda, I would not Invade poland but I would set up battel stations, I would never send U-boats to sink any U.S ships, I would go through with Operation SeaLion, I Would keep the Japs in check "We obviosly Know why", I would have our best scientest & mechanics reserch new & better ships, I would not make War with Russia untell UK was delt with and I would make my factorys have the at most Protection from Air strikes, I would make more Panzer factorys and air fighter fectorys & Would put them closer to home land, I would make more improve ments to the PzIII/PzIV/PzV/PzVI/PzVII/PzVIII and The TDs StuGIII/StuGIV/JagdPanzerIV/hetzer/JagdPanther, JagdTiger, and our Fighter planes Plus make the Jet bomber better and jet Fighter better. as well as invent the GwTiger and Leopard (Tier V). I would also try to add more allys to my side to insure victory, after UKs defeat I would fight the war with USSR. another thing I would do is have scentest reserch atomic bombs and other weponry Plus I would begen the E-seris but would start it After Russia was defeated, After that and a few years pass I would try to make peace with U.S.A and canida, If that goes south, Germany will fight für die Fatherland!

 

My end game is to Fight or controll most of EU and own most of the UK and Russia and set up stations and Heavly defended bunkers and base's all around the places We took.

Whatever happens to the People of EU is for me to dicide, I would not kill them if their state surrenders or not but if the Countrys army fights us we will keep at it untell they are done but if the country surrenders I would leave them with a notice: "Your state is now part of Germany and you'll start to lern our costums and our languge as part of a 2nd languge If you defi these rules we will Bring Law to this Country and overthrow you as a leader"...

 

 

Weird that Now in days people look at USA and think " bunch of lazy pigs" lol I Really mean no offense but it is true.

Not every state has done the best of things in history just so you know, I can recall the British doing some awful things way bofor WWI and Mexico plus all other states.

 

You can defend U.S.As right but other contrys look at us with hate.


Edited by TWISTED METAL V, 16 March 2015 - 06:59 PM.

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GUNMETALGREY1 #28 Posted 23 February 2015 - 05:35 AM

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View PostRun3scaped, on 22 February 2015 - 10:27 PM, said:

Good idea, invade the Russians first?

Yes, I wouldn't change anything historically up until the fall of France. Once France was out and assuming I fell asleep at the wheel and let the BEF escape, I would move army east and not waste Luftwaffe in Battle of Britain. So I could basically follow script historically, with the exception of attacking the RAF on it's home turf and then start my Russian campaign.



Syks7 #29 Posted 23 February 2015 - 06:23 AM

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Agree that Sea Lion was not technically feasible at the time it was being considered.  But given some time and without wasting the resources on attacking Russia?  Maybe.  The point being that concentrating forces could have had some effect.  Focusing on the british first means more troops for Afrika corp & more troops to use on Sea Lion etc...  Who knows its all just conjecture anyway.


WidowMaker1711 #30 Posted 23 February 2015 - 06:36 AM

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View PostLemonGem3021668, on 22 February 2015 - 11:25 PM, said:

My friends and I where talking about this awhile ago, and this is what I came up with. I have divided my Ideas into 3 categories: Land, Sea, and Air.

 

Land: I would focus on producing improved Panzer III and IV designs instead of building Tigers and Panthers, much less Mauses. Sloped armor and Torsion Bar suspension with inter weaved roadwheels to carry the extra weight . Continue development of the successful STuG-III design, incorporate part similarity to the Panzer III and IV with torsion bar suspension and sloped armor. Continue development of the Flak 88mm. Create a more easily deployable version with improved anti tank capabilities.

 

Air: Instead building Me-262s, I would have produced more Me-109s with improved engines to allow them to go faster. Dedicated interceptor aircraft would be a good idea as well. Improving the Stuka with retractavble landing gear would be useful, and arming them with armor-piercing bombs would be good to combat Shermans. A large long range bomber like the B-17 would be very useful to attack the British islands at night and cripple their industries. 

 

Sea: Throw more resources into Cruisers and Battleships. Germany did not possess a strong fleet. Hitler had a good Idea with plan "Z" but didn't leave himself enough time to finish it. I would have gone ahead with plan Z and continued to improve it.

 

That's just what I would do though.

 

 

Interwoven road wheels on tanks are hugely costly and pointless. All they do on pretty much anything not tarmac is foul, clog and jam. The running gear on the P3 and P4 are superior to the P5 and P6 purely because the follow the "Keep it Simple, Stupid" Principle.

 

Germany should have focused on producing the Ju88 over the Ju87, and knocked the Flying Cow that was the He111 on the head. They also needed to focus on Air Interception techniques, improved radar much earlier and the one thing the Western Allies eventually did that they failed and that was to introduce a centralised Air Reconnaisance and Interpretation Unit.

 

Finally as far as the sea goes.  E boats and S boats alongside Destroyers and Pocket Battleships operating under air cover in the Channel and out of Norway would have concentrated efforts there whilst letting Q ships and U boats operate out of the Bay of Biscay into the Atlantic.

 

And above all plan for the future properly. You have a Minister for Manufacture for a reason. Use him, let him have free rein and don't hold him back


For Russ and the Allfather

 

 


Navyman8390 #31 Posted 23 February 2015 - 06:57 AM

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First off, Hitler elected chancellor in 1933 Jan. I think.

1. Do not do something so immoral as try to xterminate a whole people group.

2. Finish Graf Zepplin and build 2 more carriers yet in addition to 6 more Bismark BBs.

3. Go through with Operation Sealion taking out England.

4. Leave Russia alone at least until England taken out and Med. secure.

5. Listen to your generals. They are professionals.

6. Do not waste excessive resources on Wunder Weapons. (Jets okay)

 



MYZTERKANDIKORN #32 Posted 23 February 2015 - 06:59 AM

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I would have developed all that technology ,pattened  and manufactured it and sold it to the world and in a sense dominated the planet economically.

Navyman8390 #33 Posted 23 February 2015 - 07:07 AM

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View PostTWISTED METAL V, on 22 February 2015 - 10:53 PM, said:

"Nein! Panzer! Achtung! Panzer Jäger!"

I would yell less, I would not face the USSR untell UK was delt with and I would make more improve ments to the PzIII/PzIV/PzV/PzVI/PzVII/PzVIII und The TDs StuGIII/StuGIV/JagdPanzerIV/hetzer/JagdPanther und JagdTiger as well as invent the GwTiger and Leopard Tier V. I would also try to add more allys to my side to insure victory, after UKs defeat I would fight the war with USSR. another thing I would do is have scentest reserch atomic bombs and other weponry After that und a few years pass we began the war with U.S.A and canida Ultimatly forcing world peace.

Come to think of it U.S.A is doing what germany did 70 years ago. Huh how ironic. also now in days people look at USA and think " bunch of lazy pigs" lol I Really mean no offense but it is true not every state is a good one just so you know.

Incidentally, U.S.A is rated as the most productive work force on Earth or we were before the Chicomms got most ofour manufacturing and Washington got so big that they tax and regulate and strangle what remains to the tune of 18 tril we'll never pay off.



RPGStylee #34 Posted 23 February 2015 - 08:02 AM

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View PostBongoBaggins, on 22 February 2015 - 11:24 PM, said:

Simple. Not retaliate to the bombing of Berlin, and keep bombing the airfields. Job done, war won.

 

War changing mistake right there.

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STLxSTANG #35 Posted 23 February 2015 - 08:13 AM

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Um..not try to fight the world and be less of a [edited]person/kill myself.

 

 

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RPGStylee #36 Posted 23 February 2015 - 08:16 AM

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I would start the war and then at the height of the Reich's power; broker a peace deal with the western allies. I would say that Europe needs to unite against Russia. I shall call this the 'European union' in which Germany remains in the seat of power. I will also offer my resignation to sweeten the deal.

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IIIApexWolfIII #37 Posted 23 February 2015 - 08:20 AM

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Ask nicely and not be a [edited]?

  

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View PostRPGStylee, on 23 February 2015 - 02:16 AM, said:

I would start the war and then at the height of the Reich's power; broker a peace deal with the western allies. I would say that Europe needs to unite against Russia. I shall call this the 'European union' in which Germany remains in the seat of power. I will also offer my resignation to sweeten the deal.

 

Too late, Uncle Sams comin for dat azz.

 

 

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MushinWolf #39 Posted 23 February 2015 - 08:21 AM

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Amongst many other sterling ideas on here so far, I would Not sell the steel presses to Russia that allowed them to eventually come up with rounded armour for the T-34 etc (As mentioned in Herr Carius's book).

 

Maybe,eventually they'd come up with it on their own..or maybe not, but definitely worth trying to stop a Lot of future troubles!


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TheDeadTANKer #40 Posted 23 February 2015 - 08:28 AM

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Then only way they could've won is to go back a few hundred years and be the first to discover the new world.   Germany lands on what will be The USA, do everything the USA did up till the 1940's then start WWII and go from there.




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