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Does Germany win in this WWII scenario?


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x Der Meister x #1 Posted 01 May 2015 - 10:30 AM

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Edit- I don't condone or support genocide. This is merely an example of a scenario that "may" have happened, made accurate for historical sake and discussion.

 

Lets say Germany takes Moscow in 1941 and defeats the USSR. How? In this alternate universe, Germany and Japan ACTUALLY employ a common strategy.

 

Pre-Barbarossa, Hitler contacts the Japanese high command to let them in on the invasion. He promises German and Italian Naval aid against the U.S after the USSR's collapse. Also, he pledges resources from the newly conquered territories such as oil and wheat. They are also promised a good portion of Eastern Russia, all in return for their assistance.

 

So while Operation Barbarossa is wrecking the USSR's Western territories, Japan launches a Pearl Harbor type strike on Vladivostok. While also deploying the majority of their troops to the Russian border (some 1 million+ soldiers), keeping Soviet forces in the region in check. They don't invade however, because as shown a few years prior, they don't match up well with Soviet forces. This is merely a diversionary tactic that leaves the USSR paralyzed and unable to reinforce Moscow as they did IRL. 

 

With the Germans steam rolling through the Western half of the USSR, and with  the Japanese poised to invade the Eastern half, Soviet moral is shattered, as is their armed forces. With the war seemingly lost, Stalin flees into hiding in the Ural Mountains (in this scenario Stalin does not recover from his breakdown. After Germany invades, he is never seen in public again). The Soviet Regime is overthrown as the Germans enter Moscow as liberators. A new Russian regime is formed and instantly agrees to whatever terms Hitler throws at them. (Hitler realizes that occupation of the entire Russian nation is impossible. Especially as War with England is still raging).

 

The new Russian regime concedes all former European Soviet territories and the Caucasus oil fields to Hitler in exchange for peace and Russian sovereignty. While they retain their independence, the terms of surrender also demand they send troops to fight for the Reich.

 

The Communist Party is also outlawed, with the SS granted permission to roam the country in search of Communist party members, NKVD agents, and any other collaborators. And above all, Stalin himself. To ensure that the USSR never rises again and that Communism is destroyed as Hitler planned all along. 

 

So what do you think? With war in the East effectively over, Russian manpower now in their back pocket, and with Germany and Japan effectively strategizing together. Can Germany win out in this scenario going forward? 


 


Zxyphos #2 Posted 01 May 2015 - 10:41 AM

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I use to enjoy threads like this, but I came to the conclusion that, most of the time, these threads end up in an argument and get locked by the mods. So, sadly, I've learned overtime not to invest the energy. That being said, in think there are a few scenarios in which Germany could of one WWII, but thankfully Hitler was there to screw it up by going against his generals. 

Reno538 #3 Posted 01 May 2015 - 10:48 AM

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If Rommel was the leader I will say yes
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Matthew J35U5 #4 Posted 01 May 2015 - 11:13 AM

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negged for endorsing mass murder. 

KeystoneCops, on 14 June 2015 - 12:51 PM, said:


RPGStylee #5 Posted 01 May 2015 - 11:22 AM

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Germany cannot win because Hitler goes completely mad with power, and they haven't physically got the manpower or resources to defeat the Russians and the further they push them back, the further the Nazi troops are from the industrial base; while the Russians get closer to theirs(unless they pick up all the tank/weapon factories up and move them back a second time).

 

The Russians also have ~500,000 men to repel the japs, who have only been fighting the Chinese who are essentially mediaeval. Not good experience for fighting an army that has at least the same amount of experience but with better equipment and training.

 

The only chance the axis powers have of winning is to keep Russia out of the war for as long as possible so that they can focus on securing resources like oil before Stallin decides to 'liberate' them.


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YugoB00M #6 Posted 01 May 2015 - 11:31 AM

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View PostMatthew J35U5, on 01 May 2015 - 11:13 AM, said:

negged for endorsing mass murder. 

 

What he said.

  

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Matthew J35U5 #7 Posted 01 May 2015 - 11:54 AM

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Just going to rewrite the OP here:

View Postx Der Meister x, on 01 May 2015 - 05:30 AM, said:

Lets say Germany takes Moscow in 1941 and defeats the USSR. How? Magic!
 

Pre-Barbarossa, Hitler contacts the Japanese high command to let them in on the invasion. He promises German and Italian Naval aid against the U.S after the USSR's collapse. Also, he pledges resources from the newly conquered territories such as oil and wheat. They are also promised a good portion of Eastern Russia, all in return for their assistance.

 

So while Operation Barbarossa is wrecking the USSR's Western territories, Japan launches a Pearl Harbor type strike on Vladivostok. While also deploying the majority of their troops to the Russian border (some 1 million+ soldiers), keeping Soviet forces in the region in check. They don't invade however, because as shown a few years prior, they don't match up well with Soviet forces. This is merely a diversionary tactic that leaves the USSR paralyzed and unable to reinforce Moscow as they did IRL. 

I am ignoring that the "Siberian divisions saving Moscow is somewhat of a myth, but let me continue. 

 

With the Germans steam rolling through the Western half of the USSR, and with  the Japanese poised to invade the Eastern half, Soviet moral is shattered, as is their armed forces. Because for some reason in this scenario Russians are scared of a fight. 

With
 the war seemingly lost, Stalin flees into hiding in the Ural Mountains (in this scenario Stalin does not recover from his breakdown. After Germany invades, he is never seen in public again). The Soviet Regime is overthrown as the Germans enter Moscow as liberators. A new Russian regime is formed and instantly agrees to whatever terms Hitler throws at them. Like I said, Magic!
 

The new Russian regime concedes all former European Soviet territories and the Caucasus oil fields to Hitler in exchange for peace and Russian sovereignty. While they retain their independence, the terms of surrender also demand they send troops to fight for the Reich.

 

The Communist Party is also outlawed, with the SS granted permission to roam the country, rounding up undesirables and murdering them. And above all, generalplan ost is implemented, resulting in the extermination of the entire Russian population west of the Urals. Just as planned. 
 

So what do you think? With war in the East effectively over, Russian manpower now in their back pocket, and with Germany and Japan effectively strategizing together. Can Germany win out in this scenario going forward? 

I think you need to be less cheerful about your waifus murdering and enslaving millions of people. 


KeystoneCops, on 14 June 2015 - 12:51 PM, said:


I3iggus Nickus #8 Posted 01 May 2015 - 12:08 PM

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Depends 

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leedozer #9 Posted 01 May 2015 - 12:24 PM

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View PostMatthew J35U5, on 01 May 2015 - 11:54 AM, said:

Just going to rewrite the OP here:

I think you need to be less cheerful about your waifus murdering and enslaving millions of people. 

 

its just a scenario, op isn't sounding cheerful or promoting murder to me, just posting a question don't get your knickers in a twist.

leedozer #10 Posted 01 May 2015 - 12:26 PM

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Your scenario would see the Americans not enter the war,as Japan would not have attacked pearl harbour yet,so any things possible would have probably defeated Russia,then who knows 

ringvelski #11 Posted 01 May 2015 - 02:25 PM

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Sure

 



Grunt67 killer #12 Posted 01 May 2015 - 03:03 PM

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Taking Moscow in 1941 does not equal a Russian surrender.   France took Moscow and then lost it's war with Russia
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Matthew J35U5 #13 Posted 01 May 2015 - 03:58 PM

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View PostGrunt67 killer, on 01 May 2015 - 10:03 AM, said:

Taking Moscow in 1941 does not equal a Russian surrender.   France took Moscow and then lost it's war with Russia

Yes, but Napoleon and irl Hitler were fighting Russians (and all of the other constituent people's of the Soviet Union) for whom adversity meant a greater determination to fight. Fantasy scenario Russians are prima donnas that give up immediately. 


KeystoneCops, on 14 June 2015 - 12:51 PM, said:


x Der Meister x #14 Posted 01 May 2015 - 05:12 PM

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View PostMatthew J35U5, on 01 May 2015 - 12:13 PM, said:

negged for endorsing mass murder. 

Really? I wanted it to sound realistic. No, actually after they defeat the Communists they get together and go to the disco! Cmon..


 


x Der Meister x #15 Posted 01 May 2015 - 05:13 PM

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View Postleedozer, on 01 May 2015 - 01:24 PM, said:

 

its just a scenario, op isn't sounding cheerful or promoting murder to me, just posting a question don't get your knickers in a twist.

This.


 


x Der Meister x #16 Posted 01 May 2015 - 05:24 PM

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View PostGrunt67 killer, on 01 May 2015 - 04:03 PM, said:

Taking Moscow in 1941 does not equal a Russian surrender.   France took Moscow and then lost it's war with Russia

Do you realize the state of the USSR and  Stalin after the initial German invasion? Its conceivable that if Japan joined in as well, he would  have went mad and lost it (as stated in the OP). With Soviet central leadership gone, its not farfetched that Germany could pull out a victory. Look at WW1 for evidence of this. Russia totally collapsed due to lack of moral and central leadership. Take Stalin out of the picture and conditions are once again ripe for this.

 

 


 


x Der Meister x #17 Posted 01 May 2015 - 05:32 PM

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View PostMatthew J35U5, on 01 May 2015 - 04:58 PM, said:

Yes, but Napoleon and irl Hitler were fighting Russians (and all of the other constituent people's of the Soviet Union) for whom adversity meant a greater determination to fight. Fantasy scenario Russians are prima donnas that give up immediately. 

Its 4 months into the invasion. With whole Soviet armies being encircled and captured, and Stalin losing confidence in victory, who rallies the people? They could have easily rolled over and quit (again, like WW1). Especially after seeing Hitlers terms that state they get to keep national sovereignty. Why continue to take massive casualties? I think this scenario holds water.


 


GingerNinjaMax #18 Posted 01 May 2015 - 08:07 PM

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Don't forget they were still  losing hundreds of thousands at Stalingrad in 42 and still the people rallied to the cause. partly because of the patriotism and partly the fear of Beria and his  NKVD, who would of took power in the event of Stalin throwing a wobbly

 

 



Matthew J35U5 #19 Posted 01 May 2015 - 09:33 PM

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View Postx Der Meister x, on 01 May 2015 - 12:24 PM, said:

View PostGrunt67 killer, on 01 May 2015 - 04:03 PM, said:

Taking Moscow in 1941 does not equal a Russian surrender.   France took Moscow and then lost it's war with Russia

Do you realize the state of the USSR and  Stalin after the initial German invasion? Its conceivable that if Japan joined in as well, he would  have went mad and lost it (as stated in the OP). With Soviet central leadership gone, its not farfetched that Germany could pull out a victory. Look at WW1 for evidence of this. Russia totally collapsed due to lack of moral and central leadership. Take Stalin out of the picture and conditions are once again ripe for this.

Yes, 1941 Soviet Union is exactly the same as 1917 Russia. Except in all the ways it isn't. What did 1917 Russia want? The Bolshevik slogan—Peace, Land, Bread. What does 1941 Soviet Union want? Dead Germans. 

View Postx Der Meister x, on 01 May 2015 - 12:32 PM, said:

View PostMatthew J35U5, on 01 May 2015 - 04:58 PM, said:

Yes, but Napoleon and irl Hitler were fighting Russians (and all of the other constituent people's of the Soviet Union) for whom adversity meant a greater determination to fight. Fantasy scenario Russians are prima donnas that give up immediately. 

Its 4 months into the invasion. With whole Soviet armies being encircled and captured, and Stalin losing confidence in victory, who rallies the people? They could have easily rolled over and quit (again, like WW1). Especially after seeing Hitlers terms that state they get to keep national sovereignty. Why continue to take massive casualties? I think this scenario holds water.

Are you an idiot? You imagine that Germany's "terms" that they will enslave and murder the brothers and sisters, mothers and fathers, sons and daughters of the Soviet people within their annexed territories will be well received? You should not trouble us with what you "think". 

View PostGingerNinjaMax, on 01 May 2015 - 03:07 PM, said:

 

Don't forget they were still  losing hundreds of thousands at Stalingrad in 42 and still the people rallied to the cause. partly because of the patriotism and partly the fear of Beria and his  NKVD, who would of took power in the event of Stalin throwing a wobbly

I wouldn't have phrased it precisely like this, but yes. The people of the Soviet Union suffered more during WWII than most in the West today can imagine, and it made them only the more determined to fight on. As for Stalin in particular, he isn't essential. If Stalin was dead, there are too many who would lose power by surrendering than would benefit from surrender. Beria is just one example. 

On a tangent, Beria is really [edited] creepy. Creepy enough that Stalin told his daughter to never be alone with him. 



Matthew J35U5 #20 Posted 01 May 2015 - 09:40 PM

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@Previous post:
To clarify, my main objection to the phrasing of the gingerninja was that I didn't think Beria was the only person who would be around to take power if Stalin was out of the picture. I imagine, that with the Party, NKVD and Army being the main power loci in the system, some kind of shared power structure would emerge, rather than Beria replacing Stalin as "supreme leader". 

KeystoneCops, on 14 June 2015 - 12:51 PM, said:





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